Evidence of meeting #122 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was users.
A video is available from Parliament.
12:10 p.m.
Head, Public Policy and Government Relations, Google Canada
You'd have to speak to Waterfront Toronto about how many expressions of interest they had for the RFI.
12:10 p.m.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Right, but don't you think that 40 days would be... I mean, you were going to build a smart city. You were going to do high tech. This was going to be something Dan Doctoroff said was going to take 15 or 20 years. Would you think that anybody would put that out for 40 days? It would be kind of ridiculous to think that anybody other than Google would be able to compete, right? I'm trying to get a sense of how these megaprojects are done.
12:10 p.m.
Head, Public Policy and Government Relations, Google Canada
Unfortunately, I can't speak to what Waterfront Toronto knew or didn't know and what fed into their decision-making process.
12:10 p.m.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
We certainly had the resignation of Ann Cavoukian, who I think carries a lot of respect. Saadia Muzaffar, who resigned, said that this project shows a "blatant disregard for residents' concerns about data and digital infrastructure. There is nothing innovative about city-building that disenfranchises its residents in insidious ways and robs valuable earnings out of public budgets....”
This does reflect on Google. Do you think there may be a better way of engaging with the public on a project that is this incredibly valuable in terms of real estate but is also a symbol of what Google plans?
12:10 p.m.
Head, Public Policy and Government Relations, Google Canada
The fact that we're having the conversation today means that it does reflect on Alphabet and the sister companies, including Google. However, from what I've seen as a bystander, Waterfront Toronto and Sidewalk Labs Toronto are engaging publicly on these issues. This is part of that dialogue.
12:10 p.m.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
When the plan was put forward.... We're talking real estate governance, and I know that's not your area of expertise, but when the plan was brought to the Waterfront Toronto real estate committee, they were made aware that this was not just 12 acres: this was potentially the whole of the Port Lands, an extremely valuable chunk of real estate to turn over. They were given three days to look at this, but when it got to a vote it was presented as a fait accompli.
How do we reassure the public that we're doing world-class infrastructure if massive amounts of extremely valuable real estate are being turned over with so little oversight, and Google thanks the Prime Minister, saying that they've been looking for someone to give them a city to be in charge of? Don't you think Google could have done a better job in talking with Sidewalk Labs to ensure that this project was being vetted in a proper manner?
12:10 p.m.
Head, Public Policy and Government Relations, Google Canada
I'm sorry to be repetitive, but this is a decision-making process by Waterfront Toronto, and the process they followed was under their own control.
12:10 p.m.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Apparently they've moved a whole new committee to handle the real estate deals, outside the committee that was raising the flags.
Finally, I'm going to ask about IP.
It says that the contracts for Sidewalk Labs are being structured with consultants and vendors so that Sidewalk, Alphabet and Google will own or will have worldwide royalty-free licence to any IP that's being developed out of this project.
Is that in the public interest, or is it going to be in the interest of Eric Schmidt, Google and Alphabet to have that kind of IP control over anything that's developed out of a public project?
12:10 p.m.
Head, Public Policy and Government Relations, Google Canada
I saw the same report you did, but I wasn't involved in the process and I haven't seen the documents.
12:10 p.m.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Did you ask? You are their Google spokesman. Do you get briefed on this stuff?
12:10 p.m.
Head, Public Policy and Government Relations, Google Canada
As I said, Sidewalk Toronto is an independent company that is pursuing its own business and working with the government independently.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bob Zimmer
Thank you, Mr. Angus.
Next up for seven minutes is Mr. Erskine-Smith.
October 23rd, 2018 / 12:10 p.m.
Liberal
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
Thanks very much.
You worked for the Privacy Commissioner previously, yes?
12:15 p.m.
Liberal
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
What year did you work for the Privacy Commissioner?
12:15 p.m.
Head, Public Policy and Government Relations, Google Canada
It was from 2007 to 2010.
12:15 p.m.
Liberal
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
I guess that was a bit before where I was going. In 2013—and I want to get to some other questions, but this was bugging me and I didn't ask it when you were here last time—when Jennifer Stoddart was the Privacy Commissioner, she made a few key recommendations for reforming PIPEDA. One was requiring that organizations publicly disclose their co-operation in sharing information with governments.
You're not going to have this information today, but subparagraph 7(3)c.1 of PIPEDA states that an organization may disclose to government without the knowledge and consent of an individual that information has been disclosed.
Can you provide to this committee the number of times Google has shared information with the Canadian government without individuals' knowledge and consent, pursuant to this section?
12:15 p.m.
Head, Public Policy and Government Relations, Google Canada
If you can give me that subparagraph specifically, I'll reply in detail.
We've had a transparency report since well before 2013, and certainly during my time at the Privacy Commissioner's, that makes public the number of times we've been asked for information about our users, and importantly, the number of times we've responded with information, because, whether it's an obligation under PIPEDA or in Europe or elsewhere, we always ensure that there's a valid legal authority for specific information, and then only make available the specific information relevant to a request that's made by government or a law enforcement authority.
12:15 p.m.
Liberal
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
You mentioned a requirement in PIPEDA or a requirement elsewhere. Others around the table have talked about the GDPR, and we've obviously heard a lot about it.
You are compliant with the GDPR in the EU, one would presume, just as you're compliant with PIPEDA here. Does that mean that a Canadian who uses Google services receives less privacy protection than any EU citizen using Google services?
12:15 p.m.
Head, Public Policy and Government Relations, Google Canada
A Canadian receives the data protection and privacy protections that are outlined in Canadian law.
12:15 p.m.
Liberal
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
That's what I mean. You're not saying we have to comply with the most stringent rules and therefore we're just going to apply them across the board to everyone; some would argue that you're reducing the stringency of privacy protections. You'd comply with PIPEDA here.
12:15 p.m.
Head, Public Policy and Government Relations, Google Canada
Let's distinguish between legal compliance and then the protections and services that are accorded to a user.
For legal compliance, we have specific legal obligations in Canada that we need to meet, and that's the framework under which we evaluate requests for information. However, we also have put in place privacy and security protections that meet those expectations globally, which means that as a matter of practice and implementation, users see the strongest privacy and security protections across our services.
12:15 p.m.
Liberal
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
That's what I want to get at. Is a Canadian user receiving the same level of privacy protections as an EU citizen?