Information & Ethics Committee on Oct. 27th, 2016

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

I don't mean to pre-empt you, but in the course of your work, you have probably had a lot of opportunity to discuss the work that you do with other regimes in other countries and in other jurisdictions domestically, but also internationally. Give us a sense of where you think we place.

[Mary Dawson]

I think we do very well. As I was saying before, we are consulted here in Canada frequently on our regime. That speaks for itself, I think.

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Okay. I'll end with that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Blaine Calkins]

Right. We go back now to Mr. Kelly.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

I'll have some time then to carry on with some of these items that we've gone into before. We left off with the screens and the ability to police. If I can be clear, you're saying that an ethical screen that you put in place is not subject to audit or any type of....

[Mary Dawson]

We have annual reviews. Every year we have an annual review of what's up on the website and what your personal disclosures were. That's all covered in that, if there's any change or anything that's gone on. It's like everything else in the act and the code. We only become aware of what we become aware of. We don't know that you've disclosed everything you should have disclosed unless we find out somehow accidentally that you've not told us that you own some huge factory somewhere that's getting loans from you or getting grants from you. However, somebody will probably tell us, and that's how we get our information basically. There's been a suggestion that maybe we should audit. Audit works all very well if you're auditing the mechanism of doing a business, but this involves your personal life. To have an audit of everything you do in your life is unreasonable and silly.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

That isn't what I was suggesting with respect to audit—

[Mary Dawson]

No, I'm not suggesting that. Others have suggested that.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Okay. Well, I wouldn't perhaps go that far—

[Mary Dawson]

Yes.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

—but auditing processes. This is where the confusion is around the reporting of recusal, where the screen is supposed to ensure there is no need to recuse. That a recusal—

[Mary Dawson]

Right.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

—happens only with a failure of the screen and that you still must recuse yourself.

[Mary Dawson]

No, it doesn't only...it may also apply quite frequently if you haven't had a screen put up. The screen is a mechanism to avoid problems. We could go very well having no screens. It's better to have them because I think you avoid a problem. If we had no screens, all those things that would have been stopped, you'd have to recuse, and they'd all be reported. This is the concern of some people. They're not all getting reported. You still have to report your recusals. You could neglect to report your recusal.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Indeed.

[Mary Dawson]

Everything is under the same parameters.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

This where we get into some of the specific cases that have been raised from time to time in the House. For example, there's the agricultural minister whose chief of staff has a substantial pecuniary interest in an agricultural business. In terms of avoidance of the appearance of conflict of interest, I think that many Canadians would think her whole job, as chief of staff to the agricultural minister, may constitute a conflict of interest. Has she, to your knowledge, recused herself from any decision-making in her office, or are you concerned that there's—

[Mary Dawson]

She has set up extensive screens, which are publicly available on our website.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

One might think that such a screen would simply insulate her from being able to make any decisions if she's that involved.

[Mary Dawson]

That's a decision she and her boss make.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Okay, I'll...

[The Chair, Conservative, Blaine Calkins]

You're good?

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

I think so. You have about two minutes left.

[The Chair, Conservative, Blaine Calkins]

I don't think we have time, but if colleagues here would allow me, I just have one quick comment.

First of all, Ms. Dawson, you've comported yourself admirably in a relatively warm environment pertaining to the issues that you oversee.

I do want to ask you one quick question, though. I remember in the second meeting that we had, I believe, and I'm paraphrasing, your words were that you often provide public office holders with hard advice—

[Mary Dawson]

I have.