Evidence of meeting #88 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was question.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:35 a.m.
Liberal
9:35 a.m.
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Yes, it defeats the purpose.
9:35 a.m.
Liberal
Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
You said in Europe it's 1,000 to one copyright versus personal information, but as you're explaining that to me, it almost seems that personal information could be a form of copyright. If I were a painter, I'd have rights to my painting. Let's say I took a photograph and I put it up on my Facebook, I'm effectively the publisher and, theoretically, I have copyright to that picture I've taken.
9:35 a.m.
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
In a sense, yes, although copyright is a commercial right while privacy is a human right, so the analogy only goes so far. I understand what you're saying, though.
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bob Zimmer
Mr. Baylis, that's time. I know there's lots to talk about.
Next up, for five minutes, Mr. Kent.
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
I would like to come back to the right to accuracy that you referred to. Do you think imposing or directing corrections or removing inaccuracies would be easier for you as commissioner than absolute erasure, removal, or de-indexing of information?
9:35 a.m.
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
It depends on the context. The act speaks to this question. It says an application can lead to actual takedown, or to corrections, modifications, or comments. It may be, depending on the case, that adding a comment—Mr. A has informed us that fact y about him is incorrect—may be effective. I think it would rarely be effective, but it may be in some cases.
I'm taking the act for what it is. It suggests a number of potential remedies, from actual takedown to de-indexing, to corrections, to making comments. Of course, making comments has a lesser impact on the freedom of expression of the person who put the information online, but it may not be very effective, depending on the case.
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
I'm thinking of the case of Wikipedia, for example, and most often public figures, whose the web pages are constantly being rewritten and facts are constantly being exaggerated, misrepresented, or whatever. Would you see—with amendments, reform, and the strengthening of your order-making powers—the ability to affect Wikipedia specifically?
9:35 a.m.
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
The short answer is yes. For the longer answer I would go back to the statistics in Europe: search engines and organizations have generally done an okay job, based simply on the fact that the vast majority of complaints to the data protection authority have led to a rejection. Ultimately, yes, it would come to the commissioner—and really, ultimately, to the court—to decide these issues.
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
Finally, do you consider that your request for amendments to the act, with the order-making powers and penalties, should be done with an intent to harmonize with European laws?
9:35 a.m.
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
It should be done in part, but not mostly. I'm making these recommendations because I think it's necessary to have the authority to address those who will not otherwise comply.
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
9:35 a.m.
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
No. Am I recommending order-making mostly to make Canada's laws adequate? No, but it's the main factor in asking for these powers. Without regard to Europe, I think it's important that I have these powers to ensure that the law is respected even by the recidivists, the recalcitrants, and so on.
9:40 a.m.
Conservative
February 1st, 2018 / 9:40 a.m.
Liberal
Anita Vandenbeld Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
Thank you very much.
I would like to ask about the education component you were talking about, particularly for young people. During the committee on the status of women's study on violence against young women and girls, we heard there is a lot of misinformation, particularly amongst boys, about what is appropriate, or even legal, to post.
One study said that boys thought that posting something, especially if it's an intimate image of a girl, was not okay, but forwarding it was perfectly fine if somebody sent it to you. The fact is that many young people are uncertain about what is legal or what is right.
I'm very interested in the concept about this rights-based privacy education program. I'm wondering who would be doing that program. Would it be your office? I know that the YWCA, MediaSmarts, and a number of other groups are doing this kind of education.
9:40 a.m.
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
All of the above.
9:40 a.m.
Liberal
Anita Vandenbeld Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
That's fantastic.
One of the things we studied on the Status on Women committee was the Australian model. I don't know if you're aware that Australia in 2015 put together their Office of the eSafety Commissioner. It reports to the Australian Communications and Media Authority, which is their CRTC, and among the mandates of that commissioner is to do public education for young people on eSafety and to receive complaints.
This is one of the areas that's very difficult, because young people often don't know where to go to complain. They don't know whether or not it would be your office, but that would be on the privacy side of things. If it's a legal issue, it would be the RCMP or other legal authorities.
Would there be some merit in having a single eSafety commissioner who would oversee, particularly for children, the complaints process? It would be a single point of contact, and it could also do some of the education.
9:40 a.m.
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
I haven't given this much thought. Certainly the interests of youth would make this something to consider seriously. All the relevant players should look at this very seriously, including our organization, provincial privacy commissioners, civil society organizations like MediaSmarts, and provincial departments of education.
In November 2017, I wrote to the Council of Ministers of Education and my provincial counterparts, and the reaction has been positive so far. The council has written back to say that individual provincial ministers will be in touch with provincial privacy commissioners to see how this can come to fruition.
I would say we need to give some thought to your proposal, but I think if all the right players play their role fully and appropriately, we'll probably get to the right place.
9:40 a.m.
Liberal
Anita Vandenbeld Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
Thank you.
I want to pick up on something Mr. Angus said about public figures. It was interesting to me because we as public figures have a much-reduced expectation of privacy. We've heard about things like female politicians having their faces photoshopped with pornographic images and things like that. I would imagine the legal recourse, regarding what you're saying about public figures and their expectations, would presumably be about things that are not within the law.
9:40 a.m.
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
That would affect the professional reputation of the individual....
9:40 a.m.
Liberal
Anita Vandenbeld Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
Okay. Where would you draw that boundary?
Even when we were talking about cybersexual violence and cyber-bullying, at what point is it in the legal category in terms of the bullying and at what point is it...? Even the definitions of harassment have not caught up in terms of online harassment and our harassment policies. At what point—and of course these are difficult questions—would it fall under your office, for instance, as opposed to going to the RCMP or to a defamation suit?
9:40 a.m.
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
The police would be involved.... I think it's a question of degree and gradation. The police of course would be involved if the act were criminal in nature or if it had that tone to it. I think our goal and the goal of organizations, including search engines, is at a lower level of accuracy or completeness of the information.
I think one of the virtues, perhaps, of what we're proposing is that there can be relatively quick access with conduct that is far from reaching criminal behaviour. The history in Europe is that 40% of requests are granted, so that's a real, practical remedy that's given quickly in a sizable proportion of cases. Police would be involved in much more serious cases.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bob Zimmer
Thank you, Ms. Vandenbeld.
As we discussed previously, we're going to have the commissioner here until all the questions are exhausted. We only have a couple of extra ones once we're done our time here. We have Mr. Angus for the next one, and I think we have Mr. Erskine-Smith and Mr. Baylis for some simple points. Then we should be done.
Mr. Angus, for three minutes.