Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 24th, 2020

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Mr. Angus, I appreciate your bringing this forward in the spirit of collaboration.

One of the articles I read last summer had to do specifically with this, and seniors as well.

Mr. Fergus, I appreciate the comment about racialized communities. However, I think that especially with vulnerable populations in general, there would be an opportunity....

Being new to this committee and to committee work in general, it seems to me that a motion like this has the opportunity to ensure it is on the cutting edge of understanding the impacts of this sort of technology, and implications to society in general and the relationship to government. You do a good job of outlining the various ways of doing this.

I guess this is maybe a point of discussion to open it up. We've now mentioned children or minors—or “minor children”, whichever way it goes—and “racialized communities”. Would it be inappropriate to add “vulnerable populations” or something to that effect? We mentioned “law enforcement agencies”, but I think there are implications to this regarding immigration and border services, the security associated with it, and the interactions between governments in that regard.

I think that it's about finding the right balance, to ensure that a motion applies to a clear mandate for this committee to move forward while also acknowledging that there is the opportunity to see it expanded in a way that ensures we don't miss out on some of the very serious things we wouldn't want to miss. I'm sure that each person around this table will learn a lot as we start diving into this.

It's a point of discussion first, before moving an amendment, but certainly I might be willing to move an amendment after that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rachael Thomas]

Mr. Angus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

As I always say, the camel was the racehorse that was designed by the committee. I don't mind if we have one or two humps on this camel.

In thinking about an amendment, I would suggest “children, seniors, vulnerable populations”. I think it's important that we're not just saying that racialized communities are part of seniors and children; they're separate. They're a separate issue.

I would say “children, seniors, vulnerable populations; and that the committee examine the potential impacts of AI and facial recognition technology on racialized communities.” It's a stand-alone thing, because it's a different factor from what's happening with seniors and children. Rather than lumping them all together, I think we have to....

I appreciate your thinking on it. Would that be clear enough?

There are other things that are going to come out in the study. This gives us an overall framework. We can find other things. We can add other things. However, I think what you've added puts us in a very clear mode.

Was the language clear?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rachael Thomas]

To be clear, then, you're saying that it would read “security and safety of children, seniors and vulnerable populations”—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Comma or semicolon....

[The Chair, Conservative, Rachael Thomas]

Yes.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

And then we have “and that the committee examine the negative impacts of AI and facial recognition technology on racialized communities.” Or, it could be just “the negative impacts on racialized communities.” That would be simple.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I like the first one better.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

What was the first one?

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

It was “its effect on racialized communities.”

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay. We don't have to add anything other than that.

I think it's a very specific thing in how it's being used and misapplied.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rachael Thomas]

Mr. Angus, are you making a further amendment?

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I'm just shortening it up: “and that the committee examine its impacts on racialized communities.” It's a stand-alone point, as opposed to being lumped in with the others.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rachael Thomas]

Okay.

Mr. Kurek.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Sorry, are we adding “seniors”?

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Yes. It has “children, seniors and vulnerable populations; and that the committee examine the impacts on racialized communities.”

Then we carry on from there.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Not to be a language maven, but it would be “examines the impacts of facial recognition technology on racialized communities.”

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Didn't I just say that?

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

No, you switched it around. That's okay. I think that's what you meant.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I didn't know what I meant.

Okay, so it's “that the committee examine...on children, seniors, vulnerable populations; and that the committee examine the impacts on racialized communities.”

Is that what you had?

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I would have had “impacts of facial recognition technology”. You're at the second-to-last line.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Yes.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

It reads, “impacts of facial recognition technology on racialized communities and the growing power of artificial intelligence.”

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rachael Thomas]

If I may, just to clarify, about halfway down, fourth line, we have “security and safety of children, seniors, vulnerable populations; that the committee study”, etc. Then we move on to the second-to-last line: “that the committee examines the impacts of facial recognition technology on racialized communities and the growing power of artificial intelligence.”

Mr. Angus.