Evidence of meeting #4 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was lobbying.
A video is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
That's fantastic. Here's my next question.
You caught my attention when you talked about additional funding. You have worked on the website in a number of ways, including maximizing its usefulness. Personally, I am concerned about access to information.
Could you explain your request for additional funding? What will it be used for?
How can we remain vigilant in terms of privacy?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
What I can tell you is that there will be no risk of a breach of privacy, in any way whatsoever. I come from the access-to-information field. Before I took this position, I worked in that field. So I am a firm believer in the protection of information. I will always make the necessary investments to ensure the integrity and protection of the information in the registry.
That being said, the more money I invest in the registry, the less money I have left to fulfill all the other tasks of my mandate. My budget request is for the hiring of five additional staff. I'm asking for an additional $780,000 a year to hire five more employees, who will work primarily in information management, management of our registry and so on, and to fund the updating of all our equipment.
Bloc
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
Madam Chair, may I ask another question? Do I have two minutes left? Good, because I have a number of questions. More specific questions will follow, but I am going to ask some questions that may be of interest to everyone.
You said earlier that some files were closed and others were in progress when you took over this position. I actually want to know more about the role we play on this committee as parliamentarians.
What happens when certain cases are suspended and appear to be resolvable? I gather reports would be produced, isn't that right?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Yes. Probably. If I investigate something involving the lobbyists' code of conduct and complete that investigation, I report to Parliament. There are far fewer complaints about the code than the act. I will give you the example of some people who did not register although they were lobbying or who did not report their monthly conversations.
Most of my investigations involve the act. When I do these types of investigations, I talk to people, read the material and make reports, which are sent to the RCMP rather than Parliament. I have sent six in the past year, which is sort of a record. There used to be an average of two or three per year. Of those six reports, one was from the previous year and one was sent by my predecessor.
With respect to suspended cases, the act requires me to let the RCMP do its job and determine whether there has actually been an offence.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, Ms. Bélanger, for coming. It's excellent to have you here, and I commend your work.
Certainly, there are many lobbyists who come and with whom we try to meet. You listed the reasons why you would investigate them for failing to report, and failing to live up to the code. One of the elements, under section 6 in the Lobbyists' Code of Conduct, states that it is not to place public office holders in a conflict of interest. That is one of the key ones.
On February 14, 2019, I wrote to you after Mr. Dion announced he was launching an investigation into whether or not the Prime Minister breached the Conflict of Interest Act. On February 19 you responded, and I'm very pleased you did. You said you were going to look into it. Did you do an investigation?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I look into everything that comes in. I cannot give you any further comment simply because I am required by law to keep everything private, and in particular, I would not want to jeopardize the integrity of any police investigation.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
I thank you for that. I guess my concern is the following. We've had this only a few times where a serious matter is brought before the lobbying or conflict of interest commissioner, and there is a finding. Your predecessor, Ms. Shepherd, used to find lobbyists contravening the act, but sometimes it was a public officer holder.
In August 2019, Commissioner Dion found that the Prime Minister had broken section 9 of the act, which is very specific, because it was to improperly further the financial interests of another party, that being SNC-Lavalin. He said that the authority of the Prime Minister and his office was used to circumvent, undermine, and ultimately attempt to discredit the decision of the Director of Public Prosecutions as well as the authority of Ms. Wilson-Raybould.
I know you can't say whether or not you carried out an investigation, but it seems we're in a very odd situation that on the person who put the Prime Ministerin this position, or the people who did, there is no report, there is no statement. There is no reference whether it was turned over to the RCMP. We don't know. If you found it sufficiently serious, and you forwarded it to the RCMP, would you not at least make that statement known, or that you had initiated an investigation? Was there an investigation, and were they found in compliance or not?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I cannot confirm anything in relation to the investigations I conduct. It's really because I need to ensure the integrity of all investigations, including those involving the RCMP. I can tell you that if I'm doing an investigation under the code, and under the act, and I have to forward all the information I've obtained under the act to the RCMP, I must also suspend the one under the code, because I can't be talking to all the same witnesses at the same time as the RCMP.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
If I may add, I can tell you as well that just as it is frustrating for you that I am not able to confirm anything, it is also frustrating for me and the employees of my office not to be able to share the extensive work that we do. Everything is being looked at very thoroughly. I can only ask you to trust that the system is working in accordance with the act, as it should, and that when and if I have an opportunity to report to Parliament, I will.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
I really appreciate that, and I don't want to make it more uncomfortable for you. I guess my concern is about having a sense of whether an investigation has begun. With Mr. Dion, there are some outstanding investigations he hasn't reported back on. I would assume that is because we knew he had begun one. Some of those cases may have been moved to the RCMP. In these cases, it's not for me to ask him, but if we don't know if an investigation has begun, we don't know if the investigation has been concluded. Would that be something we would need to look at changing regarding your role? Would this give greater clarity to us and to your office? At the end of the day, it's about public confidence .
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I think if the act were changed so I'd be able to confirm whether or not I've started an investigation, and whether I've completed it...But I don't complete the investigations I send to the RCMP; I suspend them.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Then I wait for them to do something, either to send it back to me or to lay a charge. When that is done, if they send it back to me, then I could report to Parliament. If they lay a charge...for example, in the Carson file—
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
—I ended up ceasing that. There were charges, and he was found guilty. I'm not going to report to Parliament on such a matter.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
That is the way the act is set up right now.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
I want to ask about the ability to maintain an investigation. In something like the Carson case, there are levels that have to be very, very high for the RCMP to step in, because it would be so explosive. However, this would still be in other areas a clear contravention of the act.
Would you suggest changing the rules so that you have the discretion to decide whether to continue an investigation or to hold it so that you could finish it off? When the RCMP have looked at it and have not moved on, it can seem like things are done, but there are sometimes still clear questions about the act that need to be protected.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
If the RCMP sends the file back to me, I will likely still report to Parliament on many of the files I have dealt with in the last year, even if they decide not to proceed with accusations. What I would do is simply report to Parliament what I had done and what I had found. That's what I would do, but it hasn't come back to me yet.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I would like to add something else.
