Information & Ethics Committee on March 9th, 2020

[Nancy Bélanger]

I think having a spectrum of sanctions would help as well. Right now, everything that is an offence under the act is to be sent to the RCMP. But in fact—you're correct—not all files are created equal. There might be files where we could simply issue a public report with AMPs, a prohibition on lobbying and not necessarily an offence under the Criminal Code.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rachael Thomas]

Thank you.

Monsieur Gourde for five minutes.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you for being here today, Ms. Bélanger. It is always a pleasure to welcome you.

Further to what my colleague was saying about some of the issues, lobbyists are very active on the Hill. They put a lot of pressure on us, but they also put a lot of pressure on public servants.

Have you noticed whether there are some topics lobbyists are covering more than others? Does this ring any bells? Has it happened recently or in the past year that there have been 40, 50 or 75 representations by lobbyists on the same subject?

[Nancy Bélanger]

A few years ago, there was the legalization of cannabis. It was a hot issue, and, indeed, there was an increase in representations in that area.

Health, the environment, industry and economic development are topics that are always in the news. We can see that there are higher rates in some areas, but the areas that seem to be of interest to people are the ones you are discussing.

If no lobbying was going on in these areas when they are in the news, I would be worried. I would be looking for the reason. I would try to understand why no one is lobbying on these topics when they are in the news. I am glad to see that people are lobbying, and it is in the registry.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Does a lot of lobbying go on with the Privy Council?

[Nancy Bélanger]

I think that the Privy Council is the third or fourth most solicited department in terms of lobbying. The House of Commons is in first place because it is an institution. Usually, the Department of Innovation, Science and Economic Development is second, and next is the Privy Council, that is, the Prime Minister's Office, which is always third or fourth.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

You have the registry of lobbyists, but do you also have a registry that lists all the topics discussed?

[Nancy Bélanger]

Yes. The registry shows not only the topics discussed on a given day, but also the details of discussions. It doesn't describe every minute, but it is a kind of box in which they can enter certain data.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

What type of representations do lobbyists make? In my experience, it is often about budget measures. Rarely is it about saving taxpayers' money.

Are they often representations to justify future expenditures?

[Nancy Bélanger]

I don't know, since I am not part of the discussions. What I can tell you is that the registry lists topics of discussion. If it is about budget requests, it is listed. The more entries in the register, the more transparency, in my view. However, the quality of lobbying and accessibility are not within my mandate. Funding is one of the topics in the registry, but I don't know if it is the one with the highest percentage of representations. I could get back to you with that information.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

It would be of interest to us to know how often representations are related to financial or other measures.

[Nancy Bélanger]

I will look into that and get back to you.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

In my experience, lobbyists rarely propose measures to save taxpayers' money. Often, it is to justify expenditures, future requests or government direction.

When I was in the government, it was just the opposite. They wanted the government to do this or that. When you are in opposition, they want to make sure the government is going in the right direction.

[Nancy Bélanger]

I will get you the statistics on how many times it is about subsidies or money.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

We know that these lobbyists are paid by companies. What I find distressing is that those who can afford to pay lobbyists are more vocal than those who cannot but would probably be entitled to representations to the government. They sometimes come to see us, and it is difficult. Lobbyists charge between $300 and $700 per hour. So the average Canadian cannot gain access.

Do you have ways to provide access to Canadians who do not have such means?

[Nancy Bélanger]

You are the ones being lobbied. It is therefore up to you to decide to whom you give access. I make sure that, when you give that access, it is in the registry. Currently, I do not have the mandate to determine who has access. I could never manage your schedules or decide who has access to what.

Anyone who gets paid to lobby must register in the registry, and I don't feel it is within my mandate to make it possible for the average person, who does not get paid a lot of money, to communicate with you.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

So, if the person is not paid, they do not have to register.

[Nancy Bélanger]

If the person is not paid, they do not need to register. That is true. The registry of lobbyists is there to regulate the lobbying profession. So it is about people who get paid.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

It is a Pandora's box. People can lobby without getting paid, or they can get paid some other way without us knowing about it.

Thank you, Ms. Bélanger.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rachael Thomas]

We will move to Mr. Dong for five minutes.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

I'll give my time to Brenda for her question. For the remainder of time, I'll give it back to my honourable colleague across the floor in gratitude for giving me the time to ask a question. Thank you.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much for being here, Ms. Bélanger.

I think the way you worked with the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner is a very good thing. I know that here on the committee we also work with the Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada.

You mentioned that you had some previous experience with the Office of the Information Commissioner and with the Privacy Commissioner and, of course, with the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner.

I'd like to learn a little more. Are you working with the other commissioners? If you have worked with offices such as the Office of the Auditor General, for example, it seems to me that in some of the things you're doing—I know how difficult it is to set up shop and run all the systems and so on—perhaps there can be some synergies found in working with other agencies.

[Nancy Bélanger]

Absolutely. The agents of Parliament meet regularly. We're a good group of colleagues. I work with the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner. I signed an MOU with him very shortly after I arrived so that we could share outreach activities, which we have done quite a number of times. We even did some YouTube videos and we've done a lot of teleconferences together so that both sides hear the different perspectives, from the lobbyist and from the decision-maker.

I've done a number of presentations with him. The Office of the Privacy Commissioner is actually the organization that holds our server, our registry. It ensures the integrity and respect of personal information. I do have an MOU with that organization. It costs us about $200,000 a year, but that's taken care of.

All of my services for finance, contracting, HR—whenever we want to hire somebody for the finance and the contracting—are with the Canadian Human Rights Commission. They provide that service and we have an MOU with them.

I haven't done anything with the Auditor General, and I don't know if he would be open to that. Right now, I have the resources I need to do more of the corporate side of the function.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I am going to give our colleague some speaking time.