Information & Ethics Committee on July 22nd, 2020

[The Chair, Conservative, Rachael Thomas]

Thank you, Mr. Vaughan.

There are two other speakers on the list, Madame Gaudreau and Mr. Green. That completes the speakers list for now.

Madame Gaudreau.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I must respond to what I just heard and to what I have heard in recent meetings of the Standing Committee on Finance. In fact, Mr. Morneau just appeared before the committee, and we learned that Mr. Trudeau will be paying the Standing Committee on Finance a visit. I don't understand what is going on here, because this is no small political matter or a minor offence. Consequently, it's important to me that I tell you I will be putting forward a motion.

May I read it now, Madam Chair? We can discuss it later.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rachael Thomas]

When speaking to a motion, an amendment or a subamendment, you are not able to move a motion.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I can't hear anything.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Could you speak a little bit louder, please, Madam Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rachael Thomas]

I will do my best.

When speaking to a motion, an amendment or a subamendment, you are not able to move a motion.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Perfect.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rachael Thomas]

Madame Gaudreau, if you would like to give notice that you plan to move a motion, you are able to give notice of that at this time.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Does that mean I can read it?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rachael Thomas]

You are welcome to read your motion and give notice of it at this point in time, yes, but it cannot be officially moved.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Excellent.

I will read it out, because it's still an oral motion: “In view of the admissions of the Minister of Finance to having obtained remuneration from ‘WE Charity’ and to having placed himself in a conflict of interest, the committee requests his immediate resignation.”

[The Chair, Conservative, Rachael Thomas]

Thank you.

The next speakers are Mr. Green and then Mr. Fergus. The last speaker on the list is Mr. Barrett.

Mr. Green, the floor is yours.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

I do appreciate—I deeply appreciate, actually—the candour of this discussion. I think it's very important for us to be open and honest with Canadians in terms of what our intention is when we enter into these good faith discussions, because it is a critical point.

I have to say, coming from city council myself, that the size and scope of this type of scandal would have required probably an immediate censure and there wouldn't have been a long and drawn-out process, given the information that's already been made public, quite frankly.

The spirit of the motion was to have the Prime Minister here today. What I've heard in the previous speakers' comments is that there's really no intention to have the Prime Minister join us here today, and that in fact it's not part of what they think is the appropriate use and mandate of this committee.

What I'm not interested in, Madam Chair, is the theatre of the invitation. What I want to be assured of is that when people are voting to support this invitation to the Prime Minister to testify here, they're doing it in good faith, where they actually believe—and they state on the record here today that they believe—that the Prime Minister should testify at this committee, given our mandate.

If that's not present, if this is going to be the theatre of voting for the amendment simply to get the documents subverted from this committee to the ethics and conflict of interest investigator, then that's not actually supporting the spirit and intent of the compromise, because this isn't actually a compromise at all, in fact.

That being said, I would love to hear from members opposite that they do believe that the mandate of this committee is much like that of any other committee. I'm on OGGO as well. Ministers are not backbenchers. This is not about dragging any old politician before a committee. This is about government. This is about cabinet. This is about responsibility. Quite frankly, I've said this before. Apologies are not the same as taking responsibility, and taking responsibility demands holding accountability. This committee is structured to hold government accountable.

Through you, Madam Chair, I need to be very clear again and plain in my language. If the members opposite do not actually believe in the intent and don't support having the Prime Minister come before us today, then I will be supporting the subamendment, and we will bring the documents here, because that's the spirit and intention of the motion that my colleague brought to this table, and I'm not here to play games, quite frankly.

Unless I hear from the opposite side that they believe the Prime Minister, much like he's doing in finance, much like ministers do—

[The Chair, Conservative, Rachael Thomas]

I'm sorry, Mr. Green. Just pause for one moment here.

Mrs. Shanahan has a point of order.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I'd just like to know if there's a speakers list and if I can put myself on it.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

That's not a point of order.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rachael Thomas]

I'm sorry. Let me just clarify something for the committee.

I don't mind giving the speakers list. You'll note that I'm actually giving it to you as we move along. I'm announcing two or three speakers at a time. I would encourage you folks to take up your pens and write that down. It is not an appropriate point of order to ask for the speakers list. I will not be answering that question any longer.

An appropriate time to ask for the speakers list, if you wish to have it, would be when one speaker is finished and I'm moving on to the next. There's a small pause there, and that would be an appropriate time to just raise your hand, take to the mike and ask for that speakers list.

Mr. Green, you may continue.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Yes, and I'll continue by picking up where Mr. Barrett left off. It's clear that's a tactic to disrupt, quite frankly, and if you've been in this House long enough—I've only been here six months—that is clearly not a point of order. I just want us to recognize that people are watching on live stream and they see the games that are being played at this committee.

Again, I'll put it to this committee. There is a subamendment on the table. The subamendment is tied to whether or not the Prime Minister is going to come here and testify. Unless I hear from multiple members of the governing party that they, too, believe that it's within the mandate to have the Prime Minister testify, I'm going to be supporting the subamendment. The math around the table is very simple.

I do appreciate the candour. I would like to continue and state that if we end up in a filibuster here, I'm happy to dig in and we can continue this, because with every single day that passes, more of this scandal comes to light in the media. If that's your intention—to draw this out and to play these games—then fine. If you don't believe that the Prime Minister should be here, then you ought not to vote for the amendment, because that's not negotiating in good faith, quite frankly.

That's what we're here to do. We've tried to bring a compromise to this table. We've heard quite clearly that there's no intention for the Prime Minister to come before us because they don't believe that's the mandate of this committee. I happen to believe that it is, Madam Chair.

Hopefully, folks have their speakers lists written down. I look forward to the continued debate.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rachael Thomas]

Mr. Green, thank you.

Next on my speakers list are Mr. Fergus, Mr. Barrett and Mr. Vaughan.

Mr. Fergus, the floor is yours.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Very briefly, Madam Chair, I support the amendment to the original motion. I will be voting in favour of the amendment to the original motion.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rachael Thomas]

Thank you, Mr. Fergus.

Mr. Barrett and Mr. Vaughan are next on the speakers list.

Mr. Barrett, the floor is yours.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

I'll yield my time in the interest of moving this to a vote. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rachael Thomas]

Thank you, Mr. Barrett.

Mr. Vaughan, the floor is yours.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

I would like to start by apologizing, because I think the way I phrased my argument gave rise to the concerns that—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

No, it was clear.