Information & Ethics Committee on Dec. 7th, 2020

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

I think what made this question such an incendiary issue in the media was that when the issue first came up, it was stated by WE, I believe, and certainly by the Prime Minister's Office, that his family were not paid at all. I find it very surprising that this was said.

Madam Douglas, who was the chair of the board, specifically asked if any payments were made to members of the Trudeau family. We're told by the Kielburgers that no payments were made, which I also find is extraordinary because it then came out in the media that over $300,000 had been paid to Margaret Trudeau and Sacha Trudeau.

When that news broke, were you surprised that people had been saying they were not being paid when you would have been negotiating fees for them to get paid?

[Martin Perelmuter]

I wasn't sure what to think of it. There are different entities, as you know. It's a complex structure. The speaking engagements were paid not through the charity but through I think ME to WE Social Enterprises, if I have the name correct.

My understanding was that they were saying that the charity didn't pay the speakers and that it was a different entity, a social enterprise. That was my understanding of that.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

The charity did make at least one payment. Is that correct?

[Martin Perelmuter]

There may have been one. I don't recall off the top of my head, but I think there may have been one.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I'm sorry. Who was the point person you dealt with at WE for arranging Margaret Trudeau's and Sacha Trudeau's events?

[Martin Perelmuter]

Marc Kielburger was the person that I dealt with initially. The logistics were then coordinated by someone on our team and someone on their team. I don't know who.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you very much. That's very helpful.

I'm interested, because when we had the Kielburgers at committee and we asked them why they said nobody was paid, or also why we found out they were being paid when all the other speakers were supposed to be volunteers for the WE work, they said that Margaret and Sacha weren't paid to public speak, even though Margaret is very well known as a speaker on mental health, and that she was paid for the ancillary events afterwards.

Were these after-events written into the contract?

[Martin Perelmuter]

Yes.

The agreements for those engagements were quite involved. There were a number of events. Normally, when a speaker does an event, they speak and there might be a reception or a meet-and-greet, and usually the commitment is for about a couple of hours. These events had numerous receptions, dinners, meet-and-greets and so on, so everything was included in detail in the agreement. It was a requirement that the individual would participate in all of those events.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I have some copies of some of WE's ancillary event planning and it is very complex, because this is where they were really trying to work the corporate angle. That would have been worked out as part of their.... They would come, they would speak and then there would be these obligations to work the corporate event, and that would have been laid out in the contracts.

[Martin Perelmuter]

Right. Usually they came in, I think, the night before or the day before because I think there was usually a dinner the day before the event or the night before the event, and then a number of things happening the day of the event.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you very much for that. I have a question for NATIONAL PR to clarify.

I was a little confused this morning. I believe you said that you were hired by WE for communications and media in Quebec. Was that your only obligation? You weren't there to try to build their grassroots organization in Quebec?

[Martin Daraiche]

You have it right, Mr. Angus. We were there to raise awareness of the Canada student service grant among both not-for-profit organizations and students. Basically, we were hired for communications.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay. I find that's very surprising because Madam Al Waheidi from WE was asked specifically about this issue by one of the Liberals on August 13 at the finance committee. She said, “National PR was hired to assist us in the process to reach out to francophone and Quebec organizations especially in the area of engagement of not-for-profit organizations.” Is that not true?

[Martin Daraiche]

Yes, that's true, Mr. Angus. We began reaching out to not-for-profit organizations to make them aware of the program on May 25.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

You were engaged in working with them to find the non-profit organizations. It wasn't just communications. You were actually finding the non-profit organizations, as Ms. Al Waheidi stated at the finance committee.

[Martin Daraiche]

The goal was to reach out to as many organizations as possible, so yes, we had to seek out organizations, in both urban and rural areas. To deliver on our mandate, we had to find them to, then, reach out to them and make sure they knew about the program.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

That's all the time we have on that round. In fact, we're over, but I wanted the witness to be able to complete the answer for you, Mr. Angus.

We're going to the second round, now. The second round is only five minutes.

Mr. Gourde, it is your turn for five minutes.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for being with us this morning to help us get to the bottom of this.

My first question is for you, Mr. Daraiche.

I was quite relieved to hear you say that you didn't suffer any financial losses.

Between May 22 and 25, you established the mandate and, most likely, the contract.

Was it a general contract, or was it based on an hourly rate?

[Martin Daraiche]

It was a regular contract, sir. We were paid for the hours of work our professionals put in.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

I see. It was an hourly rate contract, then.

I'm glad that you were paid, because we, as Canadian taxpayers, also paid WE. Had you not been paid, it would have been even worse.

Later today or sometime this week, could you provide the committee with the contract you signed with WE Charity?

[Martin Daraiche]

I am happy to answer any questions you have about the mandate, sir, but if you are asking me to disclose our service proposal, it's not information I am prepared to volunteer. I'll explain why.

It's a contract between two private organizations, so it contains highly commercially sensitive information. Given the type of firm we are, it could affect our ability to be competitive. What's more, the information could affect our entire clientele.

In light of that, I will answer any questions regarding our mandate, but sharing our service proposal with the committee would amount to disclosing commercially sensitive information, which could be detrimental to all of my staff around the country. For that reason, it's not something I am prepared to do.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

It is possible for the committee to look at it in camera. We can discuss it after.

When I received the communications from NATIONAL promoting the program, I must say I was rather surprised. Even though the program had been announced, we, the MPs, did not know it had been rolled out. It was done very quickly.

Did you get information even before the opposition parties did, so you could promote the program?

[Martin Daraiche]

I want to put things in their proper context. We began distributing information to constituency offices and MPs at the end of June, and Canadians were well aware of the program by then. I believe the government held a press conference about it on June 25.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

I understand what you mean. At press conferences, the government announces the program, but not always the details; they come later. At any rate, for just about every program launched this year, the program would be announced—usually by the Prime Minister, himself—and only rolled out four or five weeks later.

It came as a big surprise to me that you were working on the program with WE Charity.

Do you not see promoting the program to MPs as a form of lobbying?