Information & Ethics Committee on Oct. 9th, 2020

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I apologize, Ms. Gaudreau. I recognize that there is a problem.

I do have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

I know that Mr. Sorbara is new here. I know that the Liberals are doing lots of stuff to obstruct our work, but my understanding of this committee is that people have to be speaking to the matter at hand. I'm glad my colleague knows about an app for COVID, but we're not discussing an app. It seems to me that this is not what the issue is.

If we're going to have filibusters, people have to speak to the point, which is about the documents. It's about the WE organization paying the key members of the Trudeau family. It's about whether or not what was in those payments formed attempted influence on the Prime Minister in the awarding of a contract between $500 million and $900 million.

I just ask my colleagues to respect our time and respect this committee, and I'll ask Mr. Sorbara to read his notes about what this debate is about and stick to the issues at hand.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Colleagues, there were two points there.

Madam Gaudreau, was there some issue in regard to audio that you are dealing with? Okay, that's all good.

Colleagues, as chair, I try to give lots of latitude, but to Mr. Angus' point, we are dealing with one specific motion. If you could keep your comments as contained to that motion as possible, it would be to the benefit of all colleagues on this committee. Thank you.

You can go ahead again, Mr. Sorbara.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Sorry about that. It seems as if I have a million documents.

As the motion does relate to individuals' privacy here in Canada....

Perhaps I will just take a step back. I think about this ethics committee. I know we received a backgrounder from the Library of Parliament, “Prepared for the House of Commons Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics”. With regard to the committee's mandate, it reads as follows:

Under Standing Order 108(3)(h), the Committee’s mandate is to study matters related to the Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada, the Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada, the Office of the Lobbying Commissioner and the Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, pursuant to the Conflict of Interest Act (matters related to the Conflict of Interest Code for Members of the House of Commons are studied by the House of Commons Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs).

My understanding of the Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner is that it undertakes various studies. Obviously I, like every other Canadian, every other member of Parliament, wish to receive the documents and the findings that the Ethics Commissioner will put forth, and that's fair enough.

I am slightly concerned in terms of the motion's direction for this committee. We had on October 8, 2020, which I believe was yesterday—and I know that tomorrow is my 11th anniversary, so I do need to go shopping sometime today, so please let's not go on until midnight—the “Commissioner’s annual report: Pandemic raises privacy concerns highlighting urgency of law reform: Public health crisis has pushed daily activities online, underscoring critical need for change”.

As a member of Parliament, as someone who has the privilege to represent the wonderful residents of this riding, and as a first-time member of the ethics committee, when I look at this report, which I briefly perused last night, and some of the messages, including the commissioner's message and so forth, I see that this committee has a lot of work to do. We could do a lot of good work for Canadians in this digital age we're in, with how we've all transitioned as members of Parliament, looking at going from the physical life that we had in Ottawa, which I will admit I miss—it was nice to be back for two weeks—and also the work that we need to do now to protect individuals' privacy. With regard to Mr. Barrett's motion that is in front of us—and I also have Marie-Hélène Gaudreau's motion, so thank you for porting that along, as well—I think we have a lot of work to do.

I think the important work that needs to be done for Canadians is not on this motion. I think the motion that Member of Parliament Barrett put forward is, frankly, nothing more than.... As someone who grew up on the north coast and had many friends whose parents had fishing boats or were seiners, gillnetters or trollers, or who worked at a fish cannery, I think this is nothing more than what I would call a “fishing expedition” in the absolute sense, and nothing more than a waste of...I don't want to say the committee's time, but a waste of our time.

When I say it's a waste of time for members of Parliament, we have very important issues in front of us. We have very important issues we need to deal with, with regard to Canadians and how they participate in the society we are in and how their privacy is protected. I think that should be the nature of the committee.

This motion, to me, is nothing more than a fishing expedition by the opposition, and frankly, in a time when our economy is recovering—again, 370,000 jobs were created in the month of September—we know we have a grind in front of us. We know that a number of programs were introduced today that will benefit a number of our stakeholders, a number of our businesses, whether it's the expansion of the CEBA or the CECRA, or the new rental assistance program. Going back to this motion, to me, it is going after people in an invasion of privacy and so forth.

As I was quoted in, I believe, the iPolitics article that came out over night, and I read.... You get these Google alerts when your name gets mentioned in the press, and your blood pressure always goes up a few notches. You think, “Oh, what did I do here?” or “Did I do well?” I saw that, and I go back to it. I think this is something that the committee is veering to that does not lend itself well to what we should be doing and what our focus should be during this most extraordinary and unique time in not only our country's history but the world's history, and here we are, focusing on something that....

I've heard MP Angus comment about the size of the program that was supposedly introduced. It wasn't $900 million. It was far from that. It was a much smaller program. Nonetheless, the program was not enacted. We did help students from coast to coast to coast through the Canada emergency student benefit. I think approximately 706,000 or 703,000 students were assisted. So we are here helping Canadians.

I think the committee in its wisdom.... We are the masters of our domain. We move this ship to where we want to move it to, and we put the anchor down in whichever study we wish to embark on. In reading the report yesterday from the Privacy Commissioner, which I have here, I think Canada as a country has work to do. When I see this beautiful infographic, “Privacy Protection: Canada and its trading partners”, I think we have some really good work to do in looking at privacy. I think that should be the direction of the committee.

With regard to the motion at hand, Mr. Barrett, and please correct me if I'm wrong, my understanding is that the motion does change the motion that was in place in July. I just keep wondering why that change—I really do. That concerns me, and also the nature of the motion that was brought forth, going after the Prime Minister and his family.

I'll be honest with you. My constituents...the residents' feedback I got was that they weren't terribly impressed with the direction the opposition was going in. They weren't terribly impressed at all. They were worried about their kids going back to school. They were worried about their businesses surviving. That's what they were worried about. They were ensuring that their kids got safely back into school. We've seen changes this week with some of the school boards, the Peel school board, the York Region Catholic school board. That's what they're concerned about. I wonder sometimes about the direction and the philosophy in terms of where the opposition party wants to go with these types of motions.

Chair, I'll stop there. I believe there are others on the list who wish to speak. If I need to come back and raise my hand again, I'll use that privilege we have as members of Parliament.

Again, it is great to see everybody. It is true, yes: I do celebrate my 11th wedding anniversary tomorrow morning, and if this committee goes all night and I get in trouble, I know whom to blame.

Anyway, I'll leave it at that and let the next—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Justin Trudeau.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

No, we will definitely not blame the Prime Minister. In fact, I'm very happy with the Prime Minister's announcement today. I know that the businesses in my riding, and the citizens of my riding, will be very happy to see that the 13,000 SMEs that exist in the city of Vaughan, the approximately 4,000 businesses that I have in my riding of Vaughan—Woodbridge, will again.... As we said in our throne speech, we have citizens' backs, whether they're businesses or employees. We have the backs of all Canadians.

Actually, I do want to add something before I stop. I do want to address the comment that MP Barrett made about blaming the Prime Minister.

I view life in terms of taking responsibility and being held accountable. We're all accountable for our actions. And the Prime Minister, like all of us, is. If I made an error, my parents taught me an expression in my dialect, cerco scusa, which means you own up to what you did and you move forward and you learn from it. That's a lesson that I try to teach my kids. I think it's a lesson that I try to live up to myself, whether as a member of Parliament or in what I did for some 20-odd years working in the private sector in New York City and Toronto, and a little bit in London, England, which I was blessed to do.

I think learning those types of lessons.... MP Barrett, you know that. Also talking about blaming the leader.... I'm just pulling up here the Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner's “Kusie Report 2018”, from Mario Dion. There are, I guess, about 15 pages here that I would think about looking at. I'd just say that the Ethics Commissioner does provide information in the executive summary, and this pertains to this committee.

Let me just restate it. This is the “Kusie Report 2018”, submitted to members of Parliament in December 2018 by Mario Dion, Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner. I'll just go to the executive summary, because that tends to be the Coles Notes version.

This report presents the findings of my inquiry under the Conflict of Interest Code for Members of the House of Commons into the conduct of Mrs. Stephanie Kusie, Member of Parliament for Calgary Midnapore, in connection with public comments concerning a request for an inquiry about another Member of Parliament that she made to my Office.

On March 29, 2018, I received a letter from Mrs. Kusie asking me to conduct an inquiry into the conduct of Mr. Raj Grewal, Member of Parliament for Brampton East. That same day, I learned that an article—

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Sorry, MP Sorbara, could you slow down so the interpreter can do her job?

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Yes.

I will summarize it quickly.

I apologize to the interpreter. I speak a little French, but not very well.

I'll just switch to French.

I want to say good afternoon to all the interpreters who are helping our committee today.

I am very pleased that we are working together for all Canadians who are listening and watching this meeting.

Chair, I would like to move an amendment to Mr. Barrett's motion, if possible.

I'll stop on the French and go back.

I'll return to the report:

The evidence showed that the Office of the Leader of the Opposition encouraged Mrs. Kusie, a recently elected Member, to post about her request on social media once it had been made public. In commenting publicly on her request for an inquiry in contravention of subsection 27(2.1) of the Code, Mrs. Kusie was acting on advice that she received from staff at the Office of the Leader of the Opposition and her non-compliance was an error in judgment made in good faith. I therefore recommended that no sanction be imposed.

To me, there is the notion that we, as members of Parliament, want to act in good faith. We want to do what's right for our constituents, but at the same time we need to be accountable. I believe in that accountability. I don't believe in fishing expeditions to look at someone's private matters, especially when they are, frankly—if I can be so blunt—really none of our business.

This does not pertain directly to any member of Parliament, because I do believe that what members of Parliament do is our business, but going after their families is not. That's fundamentally wrong. That's fundamentally against the values I was raised with and raised on. If anything untoward has been done, there are various agencies in Canada we can all turn to for an investigation to be done, and that's normal, par for the course. In terms of us, as politicians, acting in a very blatant, and I would say irresponsible, manner.... Again, this is my view of the motion that has been put forward. To me, this is something done in a very irresponsible manner.

I look at the report put forward by Mr. Dion. I do believe Mr. Dion is a very honourable person, and he is conducting his investigation, which is ongoing. We look forward to all findings of officers of Parliament. Again, I do believe in accountability and transparency. I just don't believe in fishing expeditions just to do fishing expeditions.

I'm going to continue for another couple of minutes with some ideas that popped into my head, going back to the idea of privacy, Chair and fellow colleagues who have the privilege of sitting on this committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Go ahead, Mr. Sorbara.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Are the interpreters and clerk ready?

I move that Mr. Andrew Scheer, MP for Regina—Qu'Appelle, be ordered to provide all documents, including emails and text messages related to the advice that his then office, the office of the leader of the official opposition, provided to Mrs. Stephanie Kusie, MP for Calgary Midnapore, when she was advised by his office to contravene section 27(2.1) of the Conflict of Interest Code for Members of the House of Commons, as outlined in the “Kusie Report” published by the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner; and that these documents be provided to the committee within 10 calendar days.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

I have a point of order, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Okay, Mr. Barrett. I was going to rule on that, but go ahead.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

I'm looking for a ruling from the chair on the admissibility of that motion. I expect that if you confer with the clerk and with the rules of this place, you will find that the amendment is not in order.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Mr. Barrett, I am fortunate to have one of the best clerks on Parliament Hill. Her history goes way back, so I greatly appreciate that. There is no need for me to confer with the clerk on this one. This is quite easy.

It is not germane to the original motion at all. It is not coherent to it, so it's not admissible as an amendment. The amendment has to have something to do with the subject at hand. In this case it does not.

We will continue with the debate on the initial motion.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Do I have the floor again, Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

We need to move on to another speaker. I was expecting that your comments were done. That's why you moved the amendment.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

I do respect the chair's decision and obviously will not challenge it.

It's now 3:04, and I'm not finished speaking. I do have some further remarks on Mr. Barrett's motion.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Yes, Mr. Angus, what's your point of order?

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

It's my understanding that, if a member takes up their time and then introduces a motion at the end of their speaking, even if the motion they introduce is ridiculous and completely out of order, that does represent the end of their speaking. They don't then get to say they want to start all over again and talk about everything else.

He brought a motion. It was rejected. That means his turn of speaking is finished and we should now move on so we can at least, if we're going to be here for hours and hours and hours, maintain a modicum of professionalism here. Chair, you're doing an excellent job; you're very patient. I would ask my colleagues to remember how this place is supposed to run.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

You're right, Mr. Angus.

Thank you, Mr. Sorbara.

Ms. Gaudreau now has the floor.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Good afternoon.

It's hard to intervene after everything we've heard. I'm going to do it anyway according to my convictions.

You were talking about three points.

The first one I'll talk about is what I heard. The second will be on the motion. As for the third, you'll see. In any case, I think we're going to sleep here. There are some good skaters here. I just want you to know that I've taken part in figure skating competitions. So I'm ready to follow you.

Let me tell you about a few things. Actually, I am deeply embarrassed about us. I am very pleased to be here and to be a member of the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics.

My children are on holiday, and yours probably are too. They asked me if they could find out what I was doing. I told them "why not" and that they would hear all my colleagues speak. Everyone is coming together and trying to save, secure and help our fellow citizens. I asked them to tell me what they thought after watching the session. They asked me if I was going to speak. I told them we have to give everyone time to speak. They asked me why this was happening again, why we were changing the subject and why we had to finish at 3:00 o'clock. They wrote to me and asked me why it kept happening.

I'm embarrassed. You're going to tell me it works this way and that's how we do things in this federation. However, this does not prevent me from remembering what the Speaker of the House told us. Yes, I will say it again. This is my first experience and it is important for me to express this.

I've been listening to you for an hour and 10 minutes. The Speaker told members of the House of Commons that our children were watching us. Right now there are some who are watching us and wondering where we are going. Some are asking us if this is a joke. They tell us to get to the point, to vote, to discuss things and to be ethical.

We are in a committee that focuses on ethics. What is ethics? Go and read up on it. In any case, I know that you know. Ethics is what's right. What is right? What is right is good judgment, that is, the way we should act in this society.

I'd like to talk to you for half an hour, because I've got a lot on my mind. I respect you. I'm one of those who have been watching you from the beginning without closing the camera and without leaving the meeting. So I hope nothing serious has happened to Mr. Warkentin. I was really worried when it was his turn.

I'm very embarrassed because we're on the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics. I'm trying to understand what each of us is caught up in. Are we elected by a party, by citizens? Anyway, that's really my Friday question and I hope that when we get back, it will come back into the discussion. It felt good to share it with you.

New members of the committee will find that I always raise small questions like this, because that's the very basis of why we're here.

On another occasion we were talking about investigations and wondering if we were going to start investigating everyone. We're not talking about a dollar and you know it. When I arrived in Parliament, I was extremely surprised to see how much information I had to provide. If I received a little privilege over $200, I had to declare it. It was perfect. I was comfortable providing information about my family as well. You know, for people in the business world or those who manage budgets, there is often an ethical, reasonable and acceptable margin. We're not talking about a dollar or $200 here. We're talking about numbers with a lot of zeros.

I want to ask you the following question. You can't answer me, so think about it. From an ethical perspective, wouldn't it be normal that people who are suffering, who are short of money, who are dying and who are worried, are wondering at the same time what the government is doing?

The government is taking measures to save our lives, and what's the level of confidence? People told me all summer long that they needed more confidence in us. It's quite worrying. Let me go back to the premise of our first meeting. I proposed that we could finish what we started. I was ready to continue in August, and then, suddenly, I found out what a prorogation was. Well! We'll keep going, won't we? I'm also learning.

That said, some things have progressed. We must look after our constituents. To do so, as you all said, we must focus on privacy and facial recognition, and then review all potential conflicts with a view to preventing them. When we change governments, it will be the same old story. Can we finish this together? Think about the other committees that your colleagues sit on. The smiles are much more plentiful than they are here. I have the impression that we're bored, and that makes me sad. We have great things to accomplish together. I'm holding back.

Regarding the data breaches, the commissioner did indeed tell us about the issue. I encourage the new members to reread his comments. He said that the data of most Canadians and Quebeckers is freely available. You know this. Anything can be done with your telephone number, your address and your date of birth. Go on the Internet if you didn't know this. No matter what's kept and what isn't kept, everything is open. We've been told this. We must urgently carry out the work that we're supposed to do. I told you this yesterday and I'll say it again. I'll then wrap things up, because I won't be speaking for 32 minutes, but for six or seven minutes.

I want to talk about conflict of interest again. We must look at the policies in place. We must identify everything wrong and address it. My second motion was tabled and ruled in order. The next motion concerns a study and recommendations regarding the powers of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner. We keep talking about the commissioner, so let's do this study. Let's get it done!

The following motion simply concerns privacy. We have a long way to go on this issue. When I speak to our colleagues who were here before us, they ask me why nothing has come to fruition yet. I don't know. Elections are called, Parliament is prorogued, and so on. The work is waiting for us, so let's do it.

For the sake of the cause, I want us to finish up today by addressing a topic that we've discussed extensively, which is the request to shed light on the current situation. Not much has changed. Suffice it to say that we'll go all the way. If it turns out that there was nothing to hide, so much the better, confidence will be restored. To do so, we should create a special committee to look at ethics issues. That way, we can shed light on the issues that still require clarification. We were just about to complete our work. This was my third point.

I'm ready to vote on the motion. However, I noticed a typo, Mr. Chair and Madam Clerk. In French, the motion should read “24 heures,” so the word “heures” is missing. I'm ready to vote, but I'm also ready to take a 10-minute break for a bite to eat and to then stay here until midnight. I appeal to your conscience. I know that all the recommendations are in place. We could take a few minutes to get back on track and then decide to stay until a certain time. We could stop at 6 p.m. or, on the contrary, leave at 3:30 p.m. with our things and come back with a real open mind, to show that we can work together across party lines. I implore you.

Thank you. That felt good.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Madame Gaudreau.

Now we move on to Ms. Lattanzio.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a few preliminary observations in terms of procedures. I'm going to elaborate more on procedures, because this is the theme that caught my attention yesterday, with the various speakers and the motion we have before us.

For the life of me, I don't understand how we're giving precedence to this motion. I was present at the committee yesterday, and there were other motions to be considered. All of a sudden we called a quasi-important emergency meeting in less than 24 hours to discuss this motion, only because we weren't done with the motion of yesterday. These are my preliminary observations.

The second observation is the fact that we deferred Madame Gaudreau's motion. What is more striking to me is that.... I had the opportunity, being a new member, to finally sit down and look at this motion last night. I wanted to look at the details as to what the considerations were of bringing forward her motion. I glanced at it very quickly yesterday when we took the decision to defer, because there was a lot mentioned in that motion. I understand why my colleagues also were of the opinion that we needed to defer that particular motion.

I want to draw your attention, and the attention of my fellow colleagues, to paragraph 11 of that motion. I'm going to take the time to read it, because I think it's important. The motion has to do with setting up a special committee that would look into issues that were discussed in the previous mandate.

She requests:

That the committee continue all of the business of the following committees: the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics; the Standing Committee on Finance; the Standing Committee on Official Languages....

—by the way, I sit on that committee, and we're sitting next Tuesday—

...and the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates; and that the documents and evidence received by each of these committees be deemed to have been received by the said committee, including the documents provided on August 18 to the members of the Standing Committee on Finance....

Basically, my understanding is that she anticipates we are going to be requesting documents from each and every one of these individual committees, and then that these documents or evidence, or whatever documents or information we're going to get from these committees, will be given to the new committee that's going to be created. Interestingly enough, Conservative members yesterday decided to defer this motion, along with the Liberal members.

Then my colleague MP Barrett presented his motion. I read his motion again very carefully, too. I understand it differs from the motion that had been passed at this committee, of which I was not a member, and it is brought up again today. There seems to be an urgency to do this: why, I still don't understand, but we're pressing on this. When we say Liberal members are taking up time and we're discussing this.... To quote my colleague Mr. Barrett in the House this week, all members should get to speak, because it is an important pillar of democracy. We agree, colleague. We all need to speak.

I'm a new member on this committee. I think I'm more than entitled to look at documents, study documents, and if I have a point of view that differs from his or from any other colleague's, I should be given the opportunity to speak and to express that. It may not be one that he agrees with, but to be accused of speaking for the sake of filibustering.... Well, my response to him is this. He seems to want to be pushing this down our throats, plead that there is an urgency, when he also says, “You can filibuster all you want up until next week at all the meetings.” There is a statement being made here that this very same motion, or at least the request for documents or the pursuit of this, is going to continue in the next week's meetings.

I would like to submit the following supposition to my colleagues here today. If the same motion will be presented in each of the meetings that we'll have next week, including the language committee, as per Madame Gaudreau's motion, then why are we presenting the exact same request in all of these committees? What is the point of doing that?

We have a PROC committee that deals with House affairs, which can very simply deal with this request and the forthcoming requests that are going to be coming out next week. Why are we wasting the time of this committee, and possibly all other committees, on this repeated request, when it could be done by one committee that does just that? Why are we not having leaders of every party discuss this issue, come to some sort of an agreement and establish this new standing committee that will be able to look at this carefully and request all the necessary documents, rather than bring this to every committee?

If the motions or requests are not going to be the exact same requests.... By the way, I just want to make a little parenthesis: What if every committee that submitted this request comes out with different results, where there are amendments that are agreed to? Which one will we accept when we create this new standing committee: the motion that will have been passed at the ethics committee, or the motion that will have been passed at the languages committee, or the motion that will—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

On a point or order, Chair, just for the member's information, my statement was that this committee could meet every day next week and continue to debate this very same motion, and not that it would be presented at multiple committees. That wasn't my statement or intention.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Mr. Chair, I'm speaking to Madame Gaudreau's paragraph 11, and I invite my colleague Barrett to read it, because there's a premise here that we're going to be asking that all business continue in the following committees, and she enumerates which ones they are.

To quote my colleague, he said we can filibuster all we want and we can be here until next week and we can bring this up at all the meetings.

I'm sorry—he's gesturing and I don't understand.