Information & Ethics Committee on Oct. 9th, 2020

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much, but if someone's going to heckle, they have to appreciate that it will be heard and it will be responded to.

The production of documents did happen. They were made available, and I would like to put on the record where they came from.

I think I will switch to French here.

I'll quote from a letter from August 7, 2020 from the Office of the Clerk of the Privy Council and the Secretary to the Cabinet. It is addressed to David Gagnon, then clerk of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance.

Dear Mr. Gagnon:

I am pleased to provide records from the Privy Council Office (PCO) that were requested under the motion adopted by the Standing Committee on Finance (“the committee”) on July 7, 2020 in relation to the committee's study on the WE Charity and the Canada Student Services Grant (CSSG) (Annex 1).

I am also pleased to provide information related to the undertakings that I agreed to at my appearance before the committee on July 21, 2020, which were as follows:

1. A detailed timeline of events.

Attached at Annex 2 is a timeline describing PCO's knowledge of and involvement with the file.

2. A full list of organizations that were consulted on program development.

On Friday, July 24, 2020, the Department of Employment and Social Development (ESDC) provided the committee with a list of the national coalition member organizations of the Canada Service Corps (CSC) who ESDC spoke with in March and April of 2020.

I am told that on April 9, 2020, Department of Finance officials were provided with a report on stakeholder outreach regarding support for students during the COVID-19 context (See Annex 3 for a list of those organizations).

3. PCO media monitoring from the dates when Margaret and Alexandre Trudeau had speaking engagements for WE Charity.

I can confirm that PCO Media Monitoring does not have any media content of the public appearances for either Margaret Trudeau or Alexandre Trudeau.

The PCO media centre monitors coverage of the Government of Canada priorities, programs and services and does not monitor media coverage related to the relatives of the Prime Minister or their public appearances.

4. All communications between PMO staff and PCO staff; the Finance Minister's Office and PCO; and the Finance Minister's Office and the Finance Department relating to WE Charity contribution agreement and the CSSG.

These communications are included in Annex 1 and in the package from the Department of Finance.

5. Names of participants, notes, and recording of mid-April meeting between Rachel Wernick, Michelle Kovacevic (and whether PCO personnel were aware of the meeting taking place and participated).

I am told that a teleconference between officials with the Department of Finance and Employment and Social Development Canada (ESDC) was held on the evening of April 18, 2020.

Participants:

Michelle Kovacevic, Assistant Deputy Minister, Federal-Provincial Relations and Social Policy Branch, Department of Finance.

Suzy McDonald, Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Federal-Provincial Relations and Social Policy Branch, Department of Finance.

Benoît Robidoux, Associate Deputy Minister, Employment and Social Development Canada.

Rachel Wernick, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Skills and Employment Branch, Employment and Social Development Canada.

Annik Beaudry, Director General, Learning Policy, Partnerships and Service, Employment and Social Development Canada.

No officials from PCO participated in the call or were aware of the meeting.

There is no recording of the meeting.

Meeting notes that were taken by Rachel Wernick and an email thread about setting up the call are attached at Annex 4.

6. Due diligence analysis of any financial scrutiny undertaken with regard to the WE Charity during this process.

Attached at Annex 5, you will find the detailed explanation prepared by ESDC of the controls embedded in the contribution agreement to ensure stewardship and appropriate use of funds, as well as a brief overview of the typical process used to evaluate projects and recipients.

Further information relating to due diligence that was done by officials in relation to the Canada Student Service Grant is provided in Annex 1 and in the packages that other relevant departments are providing to this committee.

7. The full text of contribution agreement.

This document was provided to the committee by ESDC on Friday, July 24, 2020.

As I noted when I appeared at committee on July 21, 2020, my intent has been to be as expansive as possible in relation to the information that I provide.

The committee's motion stipulates that Cabinet confidences and national security information are to be excluded from the package. No information is being withheld on the grounds of national security, since the information does not so pertain. With respect to Cabinet confidences, you will note that considerable information on the Canada Student Service Grant that were Cabinet confidences is being provided to the committee. This is in keeping with the public disclosures of information on this matter made by members of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada. A principled approach was adopted to this information to ensure a non-selective application of the protection afforded by Cabinet confidentiality. As a result, considerable information on the Canada Student Service Grant that would otherwise constitute Cabinet confidences is being released. Information not related to the Canada Student Service Grant that constitute Cabinet confidences is withheld and identified as not relevant to the request.

In this package, I have also chosen to disclose certain personal information contained in the Privy Council records relating to individuals working in ministers' offices as well as personal information of individuals who work for WE. I have decided to disclose this information because in my view the public interest in disclosure clearly outweighs any invasion of privacy. I have notified the Privacy Commissioner of my intention to disclose this personal information, as I am required to do under the Privacy Act.

I have decided to protect the phone number and email addresses of WE employees other than Craig and Mark Kielburger. In addition, there are a few references to the family members of a public servant, and I have chosen to protect that information. In my opinion, the public interest in disclosing this type of personal information does not clearly outweigh the invasion of privacy.

Similarly, because I believe that it is in the public interest to do so, I am prepared to issue a limited waiver of solicitor client privilege as it relates to the information that is being provided by departments in response to this motion and my undertakings.

Lastly, I wish to draw the committee's attention to a Note to File, prepared by Christiane Fox, the Deputy Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs at the Privy Council Office. In that Note to File, Ms. Fox provides a clarification regarding references in two email exchanges (Annex 6).

I trust that the Committee will find the above explanations helpful in its consideration of the enclosed materials.

Sincerely,

This letter was signed by Ian Shugart, Clerk of the Privy Council Office.

The heart of our job is ensuring privacy, and I think Mr. Shugart, who worked for Mr. Harper's cabinet, put it very well. I'm glad I had the chance to read this important letter to our committee because, apparently, the desire is that committees work on all the business of all committees.

I'll continue because there is also—

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Chair, on a point of order, I know Mrs. Shanahan said she would like to hear from me, but I'm beginning to doubt that she knows she has to cede the floor in order for me to respond.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Madame Shanahan, are you—

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I'll continue.

There was also a call for documents from the Department of Finance, again addressed to David Gagnon, the Clerk of the Standing Committee on Finance. It was part of the July 7, 2020, request.

Dear Mr. Gagnon:

On behalf of the Department of Finance, I am transmitting the attached documents to you in response to the motion adopted by the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance on July 7, 2020 (Standing Order 108(1)(a)):

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(1)(a), the Committee order that any contracts concluded with We Charity and ME to WE, all briefing notes, memos and emails, including the contribution agreement between the department and WE Charity, from senior officials prepared for or sent to any Minister regarding the design and creation of the Canada Student Service Grant, as well as any written correspondence and records of other correspondence with We Charity and ME to WE from March 2020 be provided to the Committee no later than August 8, 2020; that matters of Cabinet confidence and national security be excluded from the request; and that any redactions necessary, including to protect the privacy of Canadian citizens and permanent residents whose names and personal information may be included in the documents, as well as public servants who have been providing assistance on this matter, be made by the Office of the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel of the House of Commons.

Documents are also enclosed as part of this package related to the undertakings of the Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to Cabinet, Mr. Ian Shugart, further to his testimony to the committee on July 21, 2020.

The committee's motion stipulates that Cabinet confidences and national security information are to be excluded from the package. No information is being withheld on the grounds of national security, since the information does not so pertain. With respect to Cabinet confidences, you will note that considerable information on the Canada Student Service Grant contained in Cabinet confidences is being provided to the committee. This is in keeping with the public disclosure of information on this matter made by members of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada. A principled approach was taken with respect to this information to ensure a non-selective application of the protection afforded by Cabinet confidentiality. As a result, considerable information on the Canada Student Service Grant that would otherwise be protected as Cabinet confidence is being released. Information not related to the Canada Student Service Grant that is contained in Cabinet confidences is withheld and identified as not relevant to the request.

With respect to personal information, the department is obliged to protect such information under the Privacy Act unless the individuals to whom it relates consent to its disclosure, or disclosure is otherwise authorized in certain specified circumstances or the public interest in disclosure clearly outweighs any resulting invasion of privacy.

Reasonable efforts were made by the department to obtain consent. Where consent was not given, the department found that the public interest in sharing the information with the committee outweighed any invasion of the individual's privacy. As such, disclosure is being made pursuant to subparagraph 8(2)(m)(i) of the Privacy Act. As required by the Act, the Privacy Commissioner was informed of our decision. In very limited cases, personal information was redacted from these records as consent was not obtained from the individuals concerned nor was the department able to conclude that the public interest in disclosure clearly outweighed the invasion of the individuals' privacy. The type of personal information that remains protected consists of the identity of unrelated third parties where their opinion or view relates to an unrelated matter to this inquiry, as well as personal email addresses and phone numbers.

With respect to pages 190 and 194-213, further to consultation with the originating stakeholder, authorization to disclose this information was not given as it constitutes personal information as defined under the Privacy Act. Furthermore, this information is considered proprietary to the third party. The contents of this information is not relevant to the funding agreement or the Student Grant Program, therefore it has been severed in its entirety.

For clarity, note that there were a series of emails between Finance officials and staff in the Minister of Finance's Office regarding next steps. Of note, an email from the Minister's Office to Michelle Kovacevic on April 18 lists a series of items for the department to follow up on as well as some items “WE” will address. In this instance, “WE” is a typographical error and refers to the Minister's Office, not WE Charity.

Also of note, the Annex 4 dated April 19 contains an error that was corrected verbally in an April 21 briefing with the Minister of Finance. While page 6 of the note references a cost estimate of $0.8 billion for the proposal plus potential administration costs, pages 7, 8, and 9 recommend setting aside up to $1 billion ($900 million for the initiative and an additional $100 million for implementation and associated costs). The correct recommendation ($900 million) is reflected in the April 21 version of the note, also enclosed in the package.

Finally, following the April 21 briefing, a draft Ministerial Decision Page (enclosed as the first page of the April 21, 2020 version of the note) was prepared and routed to the Finance Minister's Office for review and approval by the Minister of Finance. This Ministerial Decision Page was not formally approved by the Minister of Finance. A formal decision was later made by the Prime Minister and is reflected in the package.

This letter is signed by Paul Rochon, Deputy Minister of the Department of Finance.

It also shows how important it was for the Department of Finance to safeguard the confidentiality and privacy of individuals, while at the same time ensuring that the situation was corrected and that the committee in question had the right information.

The same is true for the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat. I have a letter addressed to David Gagnon, from the Treasury Board Secretariat, which states the following:

In response to the motion adopted by the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance (FINA) on July 7, 2020 concerning any contracts concluded with WE Charity and ME to WE, all briefing notes, memos and emails, including the contribution agreement between the government and the organization, from senior officials prepared for or sent to any Minister regarding the design and creation of the Canada Student Service Grant, as well as any written correspondence and records of other correspondence with WE Charity and ME to WE from March 2020, please find enclosed bilingual copies of Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat records.

It should be noted, that in the preparation of this package, care was taken to obtain consent—

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Chair, on a point of order, I'm finding the breadth of documentation that's being read into to the record to be fascinating, absolutely fascinating, and it's certainly what I would call the definition of a filibuster. However, if the member would be amenable, I would be comfortable with her tabling these documents for the committee's review. I would have more questions going forward, but reading them into the record certainly brings back her comment about resources and committee time. A more efficient use of that time would be to table these documents for the reference of the committee and all Canadians.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you very much, Mr. Kurek.

I certainly would invite Madam Shanahan to do just that, but I have the suspicion she may want to continue on.

I would invite you to do either one, Madam Shanahan. If you'd like to table the documents, you can do that.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I still think it is interesting to see that

I'm often interrupted by the member. I hope it's not because he doesn't like the sound of my voice. I will continue.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Mr. Kurek, you have another point of order?

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Yes.

I certainly would not ever impugn any member for the sound of their voice, but keeping in mind the full context of her comments when she talked about resources related to the committee, I note that she is reading documents into the public record. I would not and did not intend any association that meant I didn't appreciate the member and her interventions. However, keeping in mind the full scope of what's been shared here today, I thought that would be helpful in the discussion. Certainly I don't mind the sound of the member's voice. That's not what was intended whatsoever.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Mr. Kurek. I'm certain that would be comforting.

Go ahead, Madam Shanahan.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

It shows that the important work of producing documents had already been done and that the officials acted with care, to their great credit. It also shows that we can have confidence in their work and in the work of the potential special committee.

I will continue to read the letter.

It should be noted, that in the preparation of this package, care was taken to obtain consent to disclose certain personal information from relevant exempt staff referenced in the material.

The Committee's motion stipulates that Cabinet confidences and national security information are to be excluded from the package. No information is being withheld on the grounds of national security, since the information does not so pertain. With respect to Cabinet confidences, you will note that considerable information on the Canada Student Service Grant that were Cabinet confidences is being provided to the Committee. This is in keeping with the public disclosures of information on this matter made by members of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada. A principled approach was adopted to this information to ensure a non-selective application of the protection afforded by Cabinet confidentiality. As a result, considerable information on the Canada Student Service Grant that would otherwise constitute Cabinet confidences is being released. Information not related to the Canada Student Service Grant that constitutes Cabinet confidences is withheld and identified as not relevant to the request.

This same principled approach was also applied to the second enclosed package of TBS documents, which is provided in support of the commitment by the Clerk of the Privy Council to provide additional information on due diligence on the Canada Student Service Grant subsequent to his appearance on July 21, 2020. Additionally, because I believe that it is in the public interest to do so, this package includes information being made available as a result of a limited waiver of solicitor client privilege as it relates to the information that is being provided by Employment and Social Development Canada.

While many TBS employees continue to work virtually, guided by public health measures and focused on curbing the spread of COVID-19, these two packages provide, to the best of my knowledge, as of August 7, 2020, the TBS documents in response to the above-noted request for production of papers and due diligence line of inquiry.

The letter is signed by Peter Wallace, from the Treasury Board.

For the benefit of committee members, I would now like to read one final letter from Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

On a point of order, sir—

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Grande Prairie—Mackenzie, AB]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

He's outraged as well, I guess, eh?

Are you going to do the right thing now, Greg?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Go ahead, Mr. Warkentin.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Grande Prairie—Mackenzie, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We have undertaken to work together to get these documents released, and obviously, it has become abundantly clear that the Liberals have only one intent, and that is to string this meeting on as long as they possibly can, until such time as they wear us down. As a matter of fact, they've now brought in additional Liberal members to engage in what is a cover-up. I think Canadians would know a cover-up.

I would ask that you poll the members to see if there would be a willingness to move to the vote. If the Liberals consistently vote against the clear will of this committee to move forward, then it will be a demonstration that they have been sent in to engage in this cover-up and that they have acquiesced to the folks in PMO, who have said that they have one responsibility, and that's to ensure that no Canadians ever find the political bombshell that's clearly included in these documents.

If they desire to continue to engage in this cover-up, we'll sit here all night and listen to them read letters from whomever, including their relatives, if that's what they decide. Quite frankly, I would suggest to these Liberal members that they say no to the PMO and to the Prime Minister, end the cover-up and allow Canadians to truly know what has gone on.

This is getting to the point of being a farce. Canadians deserve better.

These Liberal members who have agreed to engage in this type of activity.... Folks, I've been here a long time, 15 years, and I have, from time to time, been sent down folks from PMO to tell me to do something. I may have limited my advancement in my career for a short period of time by saying no to staffers from PMO, but I can tell you that I can live with myself, knowing that I served my constituents and served Canadians.

I would implore Liberal members—

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I'm sorry, Chair. Is this a point of order?

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

You should be sorry.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Grande Prairie—Mackenzie, AB]

My point of order is that I believe it's time for us to move to a vote.

Mr. Chair, I would ask to see if there would be support from the committee members to move to the vote, simply to move on from this motion so that we can move on to other motions.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Mr. Warkentin.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Mr. Chair, on that point of order, just very briefly, I can answer that question very quickly.

Mr. Warkentin would like to know whether if you do a poll you'll find a vote, but you'll notice that, to the right hand of the screen, there are a whole bunch of hands being held up. That, in and of itself, should tell you that we'd like to speak before we go to that vote.

Thank you very much.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Grande Prairie—Mackenzie, AB]

I'm sure you have some very important letters to read.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

You have no idea, sir, but I hope you hang on in the next few hours to let me read them—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

You should start reading letters from your constituents—