Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 22nd, 2021

[A/Commr Stephen White]

Thank you very much for the question.

We can always do more in terms of prevention. This has always been our priority. The more we do, the better.

Ms. Arsenault talked a little bit about the volume of complaints we receive and the number of investigators it would take to deal with all of them. I'll ask her to elaborate on that.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Yes.

Ms. Arsenault, if it wasn't for what we've been going through in the last few years, there wouldn't have been so many complaints, because there would have been no possibility of downloading or uploading.

What's your opinion about this?

[C/Supt Marie-Claude Arsenault]

We often react because of the volume of complaints. We also have a proactive model, which allows us to identify victims and conduct more specialized or complex investigations. This allows us to get these people out of the abusive situations they are in.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Forgive me for interrupting, but I don't have much time.

Will the investment of more than $22 million allow you to be more vigilant in terms of prevention? We can see that laws are very different from one country to another and that these companies have found a business model that will allow them to continue to operate.

Other than this investment and the means to keep a watchful eye, what would you need to intervene upstream of problems that could lead to thousands of complaints?

[C/Supt Marie-Claude Arsenault]

We always need more resources, but the resources we invest in this area are more for the proactive aspect. We need to collect data and prioritize cases to be able to stop abuse. Of course, building partnerships is really important to do these investigations.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

You said earlier that you were facing challenges related to jurisdictions. Since you have to deal with the various provinces, things will vary from place to place in Canada.

Could you tell us more about the partnerships used to enforce the law as it stands?

My question is for Ms. Arsenault or Mr. White.

[A/Commr Stephen White]

We work closely with our partners in the provinces and municipalities. There are teams in every province and in almost every major city, for example in Toronto, Ontario, where the provincial police have resources to conduct these types of investigations.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

You said you received 120 reports. Do they involve child pornography or are there also cases involving adults who have been unable to have content removed on these platforms?

[A/Commr Stephen White]

I would ask Ms. Arsenault to give you these details.

[C/Supt Marie-Claude Arsenault]

These are 120 reports regarding Pornhub that we received from NCMEC, the National Centre for Missing and Exploited Children. Of these, 25 reports that involved child sexual exploitation were forwarded to police agencies in various locations across the country. Of the remaining reports, 93 were determined to fall outside of the Criminal Code definition of the alleged offence. The remaining reports are currently being evaluated.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Other than financial resources, what changes in legislation would you like to see adopted on an urgent basis so that we have the tools to fight or stop this scourge?

[D/Commr Stephen White]

There are probably quite a number of things that we could be looking at.

I've already touched on a number of them with regard to making sure we get access to the data and to any information that we would be able to have access to up front and more urgently, as well as more basic subscriber information, and also ensuring that all the entities that are required under the mandatory reporting act to report are reporting. We obviously need some level of compliance around that.

Encryption is becoming a challenge for law enforcement in terms of regular encryption. In encryption, people are able to become a lot more anonymous and hide their identities on the Internet.

There are actually quite a number of elements that we are looking at and having discussions on.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Brenda Shanahan]

Thank you very much.

We'll now go to Mr. Angus for six minutes.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you so much.

Mr. White, you talk about your private sector partners that you work with. Is Pornhub-MindGeek one of your partners?

[D/Commr Stephen White]

To my knowledge, we are not a partner with them. When I refer to partners, I'm referring to—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay. Who are your private sector partners if the biggest porn company in Canada isn't one of them? Who are your private sector partners that you work with?

[D/Commr Stephen White]

We are working with some of the bigger companies, Google, Facebook. When I mentioned the Virtual Global Taskforce earlier—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

But you're not working with Pornhub-MindGeek?

[D/Commr Stephen White]

Not to my knowledge, but I will ask Madam Arsenault—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Have you watched any of this testimony of what we're studying here? We're studying Pornhub-MindGeek. They aren't one of your partners.

You get your information from NCMEC. Is that correct?

[D/Commr Stephen White]

NCMEC, yes.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay.

In 2011, the Canadian Parliament passed a law that if an Internet content hosting service provider came across issues of child abuse online, they had a legal obligation to report to the police. That was in 2011.

[D/Commr Stephen White]

That is correct.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

How many cases have been reported to you by Pornhub-MindGeek since 2011?

[D/Commr Stephen White]

I'll ask Madam Arsenault to confirm that, but it's my understanding we only began receiving complaints in 2020.