Evidence of meeting #21 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pornhub.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:45 p.m.
D/Commr Stephen White
These will be my last couple of sentences.
12:45 p.m.
D/Commr Stephen White
The illegal online content that many communications service providers operating in Canada have to deal with goes beyond online child sexual exploitation. As the committee is aware, the parameters are wide and include rape, various forms of violence and non-consensual distribution of intimate images, such as revenge porn. Sadly, many victims who have been victimized through sites such as these may not involve law enforcement due to the fear of repercussions from their families, friends and employers or because they feel a sense of shame. These offences have damaging and long-term impacts on our citizens and on our societies. We must strive to do better.
Thank you for inviting us here today. We look forward to answering your questions.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Brenda Shanahan
Thank you very much, Mr. White.
I now go to Mr. Viersen for six minutes.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I want to thank the witnesses for being here.
Section 163.1 of the Criminal Code makes it an offence to make available or distribute CSAM. MindGeek executives told us that none of this exists on their site. Have you found this to be true, Mr. White?
12:45 p.m.
D/Commr Stephen White
Actually, we have had referrals from our partner in the United States that I mentioned, NCMEC, with regard to disclosures by that company to us regarding that content.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB
Okay.
We've heard multiple times at this committee that there are documented cases of videos of exploitation of minors being put up on MindGeek. The big question for us is to understand why the owners have not faced charges. Is there a problem with the laws as they currently stand?
12:50 p.m.
D/Commr Stephen White
Obviously, there are a number of elements to when and what types of charges will be laid. When we're talking about these corporations, which are service providers and hosting platforms, other individuals have the ability to automatically load the content onto the platforms. There are jurisdiction issues, but every case is different.
I would ask my colleague, Chief Superintendent Arsenault, if she can add to that.
February 22nd, 2021 / 12:50 p.m.
Chief Superintendent Marie-Claude Arsenault Royal Canadian Mounted Police
I would add that every situation is assessed, and in looking at the evidence we have, that would determine if we have enough to proceed with charges. As was mentioned, with MindGeek or Pornhub, we've received, since June 2020, about [Technical difficulty—Editor] reports, which were—
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Brenda Shanahan
Could you repeat that number again?
Ms. Arsenault, there was an interruption in the audio.
12:50 p.m.
C/Supt Marie-Claude Arsenault
One-two-zero: Did you hear that?
12:50 p.m.
C/Supt Marie-Claude Arsenault
We've received 120 reports, which have been triaged and prioritized. Some were referred to other law enforcement in Canada and others were deemed to be not online sexual exploitation, for various reasons. That's it.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB
The presence of the download button on the MindGeek-Pornhub site seems like a clear violation of the distribution part of the CSAM laws. Is that part of your case? Has that been flagged? How come we haven't seen any charges?
12:50 p.m.
C/Supt Marie-Claude Arsenault
Well, again, we have to look at all the evidence we have, and my understanding is that this function has been taken out. Without the evidence, there's limited action that we can take. We are assessing all the reports that we're getting now and determining if charges are likely to happen.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB
Okay.
Up until recently, you have not had any reports of CSAM on MindGeek or Pornhub sites. Am I hearing you correctly?
12:50 p.m.
C/Supt Marie-Claude Arsenault
June 2020.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB
Okay.
The government has indicated that it will table legislation that will require companies like MindGeek to remove illegal content from websites within 24 hours. Do you think that's enough? We know that with some of the cases we've seen here, some of these videos have millions of views within 24 hours. Is 24 hours a short enough period of time?
12:50 p.m.
C/Supt Marie-Claude Arsenault
Who is the question directed to?
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
12:50 p.m.
C/Supt Marie-Claude Arsenault
Well, any action that will improve on the reporting, and any tools that will assist law enforcement in getting the information as fast as we can as we're trying to identify and rescue the victim in a timely manner....
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB
In other areas of sexual assault, like bail hearings and things like that, there's a reverse onus that is placed on the defendant. Would there be any area in this area of the law where a reverse onus would be helpful? I'm just thinking of taking a screenshot and saying, “This looks bad, so prove that it's not the case.” Is that an opportunity in the law?
12:55 p.m.
D/Commr Stephen White
There's always a possibility for it. In terms of this type of content, obviously we'd have to look very closely at that with our Justice officials to see if that type of provision would apply.
I'm not sure if Normand, our colleague from Justice, can add anything to that.
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Brenda Shanahan
I'm sorry. He won't have time to reply, but perhaps in the next round, further along.
We'll go to Mr. Dong for six minutes.
Mr. Dong, we're not hearing you. This is unfortunate.