Evidence of meeting #21 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pornhub.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:15 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, National Center for Missing & Exploited Children
That would be correct.
12:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Brenda Shanahan
Thank you very much.
Mr. Gourde, you have the floor for five minutes.
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lévis—Lotbinière, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Witnesses speak about concerted action at the international level. We all understand that, in cases where virtual activities are involved, there are no borders.
My concern is that while we work to put in place strong regulations in Canada, companies like Pornhub could move their headquarters to countries where they would be safe from lawsuits or any legal action. It's shocking how quickly these companies can move, and it leaves us perplexed as to what action we should take.
Could the witnesses give us an idea of countries we could work with internationally? Which countries would be most sensitive to the problem?
Could we talk about crimes against our children? Could these criminals be accused of crimes against humanity?
12:20 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, National Center for Missing & Exploited Children
We are indeed talking about criminal activity, and to your question about which countries we should work with, again, it's very, very difficult. There are variances in all different countries we work with, but make no mistake that we do believe in strong enforcement, strong prosecution, a strong judicial system. The legality surrounding this.... I mean, the information superhighway was never meant to be unpoliced. If a crime happens on the street and is punishable under law, it should be the same if a crime is happening on the Internet. It should be punishable to the full extent of the law.
12:20 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Centre for Child Protection
I would add in here, to echo John's comments, that it is very challenging. I would say, though, that Australia has done some very impressive work in this space. Also, as was mentioned by Daniel, the U.K. government has really taken a leadership role with its “Online Harms White Paper” and looking towards a different type of schema to look at this. I do want to make just one point that really has not been discussed here at all, and that goes back to the issue of accountability and oversight.
Again, we are still relying on systems under which it's up to the companies to come forward and to report, so we don't know the scale of the problem. We don't know. There's no oversight to know if they're in fact reporting what they ought to be reporting, and it puts the users or survivors and victims in an unfair situation when they're dependent on these companies to do the right thing. While we looked at what is available to us, we also have to raise the important question about accountability and what oversight is tied to what these companies are or are not doing.
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lévis—Lotbinière, QC
These platforms and companies are owned by unscrupulous individuals. Should we instead sue the owners of these platforms?
In my opinion, it would hurt them a lot more and would solve the problem faster.
My question is for all the witnesses.
12:20 p.m.
Executive Director, Friends of Canadian Broadcasting
You need more government certification to sell a toaster oven than you do to run Facebook or Pornhub. This idea of permissionless entry can be very difficult. Ultimately, I think, the question is can they operate legally. If they can't, we should come down on them.
You asked about international measures. As I said earlier, the companies may be based elsewhere, but there's a lot of money made here. Just as we've done with other transnational criminal incidents where the criminals themselves are not available, the money is, and if we target the money, I think we can make good progress.
That is something Canada can do without waiting for international participation. As much as it would be great to work with other countries around the world, this could be one of those rare instances where we might want to lead globally, and I seriously encourage you to do it. We can start by calling the cops.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Brenda Shanahan
Thank you, Mr. Bernhard.
Mr. Gourde, there are only a few seconds left, so we'll move on to Ms. Lattanzio.
Ms. Lattanzio, you have the floor for five minutes.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Patricia Lattanzio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to our guests for being here this morning.
My first question is for you, Mr. Clark.
We heard Mr. Antoon from MindGeek say during his testimony how proud he was of being a partner with NCMEC. He clearly said in his testimony that he reports every instance of CSAM when they are aware of it, so that the information could be disseminated or investigated by authorities across the globe.
When we asked him to give us a report of how many instances were reported just in 2019, they couldn't answer. Would you be in a position to provide us information for 2019 and also, if you can, going all the way back to 2008?
12:25 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, National Center for Missing & Exploited Children
Sure. As was noted in my testimony, they are not a partner. In fact, we sent a letter to them soon after their testimony when we became aware that they were saying they were a partner, telling them that it was not true and that they should cease and desist from saying so. That's important to note.
In terms of the 2019 numbers, I'm not aware of any reporting that was happening in that particular calendar year. In 2020, we did begin to receive some of the reports. Again, this is on a voluntary basis. We did note that many of those reports were duplicative.
We have encouraged them, as we do all the ESPs, to begin a stricter content moderation. They should begin to actually know beforehand what is being uploaded and whether that content passes any of the legal requirements that they would have to post it. If it does not, it should not go up, period. They should not have to go back and look for it or have a victim call in and ask for it to be taken down.
That's something we encourage all of them to do.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Patricia Lattanzio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
Okay.
My next question is for you, Mr. Bernhard.
In what you were stating this morning, I hear very clearly from you that we don't need to have more laws. You want the enforcement part to be acted on ASAP.
On the laws that we have presently, do you see or foresee any loopholes in the existing laws? Can we make sure that when these companies or individuals are indeed tried they don't get away?
12:25 p.m.
Executive Director, Friends of Canadian Broadcasting
Thank you for your question.
I think the biggest problem—we mention this in our report—happens when an offence is not criminal but civil and the current system leaves it to the individual victim to take up their case with a platform. This happens often in cases of libel and defamation. It's just impossible to expect that one person will have the emotional and financial resources to see that through.
The one area where we do think there could be improvement is for the government to empower someone, like the Centre for Child Protection, to use government resources to help escalate cases so that individual plaintiffs and individual complainants can have the force of government behind them to make sure that their complaints are seen through. That's one area of enforcement where we think there could definitely be an improvement.
As for the loopholes, we need to find out, and until a judge points at one, we won't know, so let's get on with it. That's our lesson here, our message. If there are loopholes, we'll identify them and Parliament can act to fix them.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Patricia Lattanzio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
You're waiting for cases to come before the court so that we can establish some sort of jurisprudence on the issue. Is that what you're saying?
February 22nd, 2021 / 12:25 p.m.
Executive Director, Friends of Canadian Broadcasting
Yes.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Patricia Lattanzio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
Thank you.
The CRTC explains that it does not regulate Internet content, because consumers can already control access to unsuitable material on the Internet using the filtering software, and any potential illegal content on the Internet can be addressed with civil action, existing hate crime legislation and the courts.
How do you respond to the position taken by the CRTC?
12:30 p.m.
Executive Director, Friends of Canadian Broadcasting
The CRTC has exempted itself from the obligation to regulate online broadcasting. That's not actually a problem with the Broadcasting Act. The CRTC has created an order to let itself off the hook with this. We can litigate that on another occasion. I think the major implication for that is with Netflix and companies like that.
That does not excuse these platforms from civil or criminal law. As I said earlier, these platforms will hide behind their scale. They will say, “Look how many videos there are. How could we possibly find all the illegal content inside?” My answer, and I hope your answer, should be, “I don't care. If you can't fly the plane safely, then you can't sell tickets to the public. If you cannot operate this service legally, then you can't operate it.” It's really that simple.
The CRTC is disappointing in this case. Fortunately there are other avenues.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Brenda Shanahan
Thank you very much.
That's your time, Ms. Lattanzio.
I will now thank all the witnesses for appearing before us and suspend the meeting for three minutes when we will come back on again.
Thank you very much.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Brenda Shanahan
Colleagues, we are resuming our meeting. I would propose that after this panel we go in camera to discuss some developments with our upcoming witnesses. The clerk will send out new codes for the in camera portion. We will suspend at about 1:30 to go in camera, if members agree.
We're all in agreement. Thank you very much.
I would like to introduce our witnesses. From the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, we have Mr. Stephen White, deputy commissioner, specialized policing services; Marie-Claude Arsenault, chief superintendent; and Paul Boudreau, executive director, technical operations, specialized policing services. I believe we also have Normand Wong from the Department of Justice.
Will both the RCMP and Department of Justice be presenting?
Is there a presentation from the RCMP, Madam Clerk?
12:35 p.m.
Deputy Commissioner Stephen White Deputy Commissioner, Specialized Policing Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Yes, the RCMP will be doing an opening statement.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Brenda Shanahan
Very good.
Will the Department of Justice be making one as well?
12:35 p.m.
Normand Wong Senior Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
No, the Department of Justice will not be doing an opening statement.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Brenda Shanahan
Thank you very much.
We will now begin with the presentation from the RCMP.
Mr. White.
12:40 p.m.
D/Commr Stephen White
Thank you very much.
Good afternoon, Madam Chair and honourable members of the committee. Thank you very much for the opportunity to speak with you today on this pressing matter. My colleagues from the RCMP have been introduced.
I'd like to highlight that Chief Superintendent Marie-Claude Arsenault is with us. She oversees sensitive and specialized investigative services, which also includes the National Child Exploitation Crime Centre. Also with us is Mr. Paul Boudreau, executive director of technical operations for the RCMP. It's also a pleasure to have our colleague from the Department of Justice with us as well.
I'd like to describe for a couple of minutes a broader context of online child sexual exploitation and highlight the RCMP's steadfast efforts towards combatting this crime and bringing offenders to justice.
Online child sexual exploitation is one of the most egregious forms of gender-based violence and human rights violations in Canada. Not only are children, particularly girls, victimized through sexual abuse, but often they are revictimized through their lives, as photos, videos and/or stories of their abuse are shared repeatedly on the Internet amongst offenders.
In 2004 the Government of Canada announced the national strategy for the protection of children from sexual exploitation on the Internet, which brings together the RCMP, Public Safety Canada, the Department of Justice and the Canadian Centre for Child Protection, CCCP, to provide a comprehensive, coordinated approach to enhancing the protection of children from online child sexual exploitation. The Canadian Centre for Child Protection is a non-governmental organization that operates Cybertip.ca, Canada's tip line to report suspected online sexual exploitation of children.
The Criminal Code provides a comprehensive range of offences relating to online child sexual exploitation. Canadian police services, including the RCMP, are responsible for investigating these offences when there is a possible link to Canada. The Criminal Code also authorizes courts to order the removal of specific material, for example, a voyeuristic recording, an intimate image and child pornography that are stored on and made available through a computer system in Canada.
The RCMP's National Child Exploitation Crime Centre is the national law enforcement arm of the national strategy and functions as a central point of contact for investigations related to online sexual exploitation of children in Canada and international investigations involving Canadian victims, offenders or Canadian companies hosting child sexual exploitation material.
The centre investigates online child sexual exploitation and provides a number of critical services to law enforcement agencies, including immediately responding to a child at risk; coordinating investigative files with police of jurisdiction across Canada and internationally; identifying and rescuing victims; conducting specialized investigations; gathering, analyzing and generating intelligence in support of operations; engaging in operational research; and developing and implementing technical solutions.
The centre has seen first-hand the dramatic increase in reports of online child sexual exploitation in recent years. In 2019 the centre received 102,927 requests for assistance, an increase of 68% since 2018 and an overall increase of 1,106% since 2014. The majority of the referrals the centre receives come from the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children in the United States. Every report is assessed and actioned where possible.
In addition to the high number of reports, cases of online child sexual exploitation have become more complex. Advances in technology such as encryption, the dark Web and tools to ensure anonymity have made it much easier for offenders to conduct their criminal activities away from law enforcement agencies. Investigations related to online platforms also raise a host of other Internet-related issues, including the failure of platforms to retain data, the amount and speed at which content can be posted and distributed, and the ability of users to download hosted content.
When content is successfully removed from one platform, it can easily be uploaded to the same platform or to other websites, perpetuating victimization and leading to a proliferation of content depicting sexually exploited children on multiple platforms. It is well known that offenders protect this type of content on personal devices or through cloud computing services.
Like many cybercrimes, online child sexual exploitation is often multi-jurisdictional or multinational, affecting victims across jurisdictions and creating additional complexities for law enforcement. No single government or organization can address this crime alone. The RCMP works diligently with its partners at the municipal, provincial and federal levels in Canada and internationally, as well as with non-governmental organizations, to strengthen efforts to rescue victims and bring offenders to justice. In fact, the RCMP is the current chair of the Virtual Global Taskforce, an international police alliance dedicated to the protection of children from online sexual exploitation and other transnational child sex offences. The Virtual Global Taskforce consists of law enforcement, NGOs and industry partners working collaboratively to find effective response strategies. Chief Superintendent Arsenault, who is with us today, is the current chair of this very important group.
The RCMP also seeks to work closely with the private sector as offenders regularly utilize platforms operated by Internet and/or communications service providers to carry out a range of Criminal Code offences relating to online child sexual exploitation.
The RCMP regularly engages private sector partners to discuss existing legislation, which includes an act respecting the mandatory reporting of Internet child pornography by persons who provide an Internet service, referred to as the mandatory reporting act, which came into force in 2011. The mandatory reporting act requires that Internet service providers report to the Canadian Centre for Child Protection any tips they receive regarding websites where child pornography may be publicly available. Under the mandatory reporting act, Internet service providers are also required to notify police and safeguard evidence if they believe that a child pornography offence has been committed using their Internet service. Since the mandatory reporting act came into force in 2011, the RCMP has seen a continual increase in reporting from industry partners.
Many online platforms post jurisdictional challenges, as I outlined earlier. An online platform that is registered in Canada may maintain its servers abroad, which could limit the effect of a Canadian warrant. Further, when a global company registered abroad has a Canadian presence, it is likely to host its content abroad, making jurisdiction difficult to determine.
When an online platform permits its users, and/or itself, to personally download material to and upload material from their own computers, it becomes impossible to determine where this material may be stored or to prevent it from reappearing and being further disseminated.
New companies, platforms and applications will continue to emerge, and the services they provide to Canadians will continue to evolve. It is important that the Government of Canada, legislative authorities and law enforcement agencies keep pace and adapt accordingly to combat these crimes.
The illegal online content that many communications service—
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Brenda Shanahan
I'm sorry, Mr. White. Are you wrapping up? I think we need to move to questions.
