Evidence of meeting #26 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was know.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
Thank you.
We're going to turn now to Mr. Fortin for his six-minute round.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Minister, can you tell us why Mr. Theis isn't here today?
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
It's because of ministerial responsibility, a principle you are very familiar with and one that we uphold here just as the National Assembly of Quebec does.
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
As I clearly stated in the House of Commons the other day, staffers will not appear before committees and will be replaced by the ministers who are responsible.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
If I understand correctly, Mr. Theis isn't here today because you told him not to come. Is that right?
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
Based on the instructions I gave the other day, it was clear to Mr. Theis and other individuals that they wouldn't appear before committees and would be replaced by the appropriate ministers, which is how our system is set up, and which is what the Conservative government quite rightly did in its day.
I am here to speak in his stead.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Mr. Minister, what gives you the authority to contravene an order of the House of Commons or to take precedence over the House?
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
As I said, Mr. Fortin, it's the principle of ministerial responsibility, a long-standing tradition. We can also operate according to tradition. Traditions are often absolutely essential to the operation of our institutions. This is a very important one.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
If I understand correctly, there's a tradition that gives you, Mr. Minister, precedence over any decision or order of the House of Commons.
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
What I was trying to say is that we have a tradition that's deeply rooted in our way of doing things and that's essential to the workings of Parliament. That tradition is called ministerial responsibility.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
I'm not aware of that tradition, Mr. Minister. I've never heard of it.
I'm probably naive, but I was under the impression that the House of Commons is the highest authority in Canada and that nobody can contravene an order of the House without being liable to severe penalties. Now you're telling me that there's a tradition that allows ministers to contravene obligations imposed on them by the House of Commons. That's news to me.
Does this same tradition authorize you to encourage people to disobey orders of the House, or rather, to instruct them to do so? Is that the same tradition?
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
That's a very fine point, Mr. Fortin.
I'm not saying that ministers can do whatever they want, generally speaking. That's not at all what this is about, and that's as it should be. However, it's a prevailing tradition that a minister can replace an employee who is called to testify in committee. In 2010, Mr. Poilievre fought for that tooth and nail when Mr. Baird appeared before a committee instead of an employee. The Conservatives did that in all the committees in 2010.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
I wasn't here in 2010.
There was a debate on Thursday, March 25. What I know is that, four or five days ago, on March 25, the House ordered Rick Theis to be here. Today, you are here with us, Mr. Minister. You're telling me that you told Rick Theis not to obey the order because you would appear in his place.
So be it, but I'd like to know what gives you that authority. What is the basis for it, the rationale? I still don't understand. You said that you can't contravene an order of the House under just any circumstance. Can you tell me what those circumstances are? Under what circumstances does the minister take precedence over the House of Commons?
Bloc
Liberal
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
I respect you too, Mr. Minister, and now that I know you take precedence over the House, I have even more respect for you.
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
Please let me answer.
It's not that ministers take precedence over the House, but ministerial responsibility means that a minister can replace an employee who reports to the minister, not to Parliament. The minister is the one who is accountable to Parliament.
