Information & Ethics Committee on March 29th, 2021

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

The House did not summon a government representative. The House summoned Rick Theis specifically. It authorized the Prime Minister to replace him if he so desired. I didn't see anything in the motion about Mr. Rodriguez or the government House leader replacing him. I've never seen anything anywhere in any rule or any tradition about a minister ordering someone to disobey an order of the House. I've never seen that.

This seems serious to me, Mr. Minister. I'm sorry to tell you that. With all due respect, I think what you've done, what you're telling us about today, is really serious. As I see it, it's unprecedented.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

May I answer you, Mr. Fortin?

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Go ahead.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Here's what the House of Commons Procedure and Practice says on page 30:

...Ministers must be accountable or responsible to Parliament...

In terms of ministerial responsibility, Ministers have both individual and collective responsibilities to Parliament.... The principle of individual ministerial responsibility holds that Ministers are accountable not only for their own actions as department heads, but also for the actions of their subordinates....

That's extremely clear.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

I agree that you're responsible for what happens in your department—

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Mr. Fortin. Your time is up.

Mr. Angus, we'll turn to you for six minutes.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Rodriguez.

Yes, we have many traditions and conventions in Parliament. Usually it's about protecting the prime minister no matter what, doing what has to be done to make sure that you can beat scandals down.

I was around. My hair is as grey as yours, so you and I go back a long way. Maybe some of your other colleagues don't remember the old days, but I remember Stephen Harper, and I remember—was it May 2010?—when this committee called Sébastien Togneri, a minister's staffer, to this committee to testify. I remember my good friend Wayne Easter said he smelled a cover-up. Paul Szabo issued the order and a minister's staffer came, so obviously there's a precedent.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Yes, and then the minister replaced the staffer based on the principle of ministerial responsibility, and what—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

But he came.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

At the beginning, but then the staffers were replaced, as you know, by different ministers, including Mr. Baird and I think Madam Finley and others, and that was defended, of course, by Mr. Poilievre, who was there at the time.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Don't get me in with Mr. Poilievre; otherwise, Madam Shanahan's going to shut me down and start attacking me. I only have six minutes, so I don't want you to provoke anybody on your team. I—

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Sorry; I have a point of order, Chair.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Oh, there we go.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Go ahead on a point of order, Mrs. Shanahan.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I would like Mr. Angus to withdraw that remark. That was very unparliamentary.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

I didn't make a ruling with regard to parliamentary language and I don't think that the language that was used was considered unparliamentary.

We'll turn to Mr. Angus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

I'm hoping Madam Shanahan isn't doing this to interrupt my time, because I really want to talk with my old friend Pablo. We sat on a number of committees together. I hope that's not coming out of my time.

I think what's really fascinating here is about Mr. Theis, and I'm going to put my cards on the table: I want to get this study finished. We have to get this thing done. There's not much that I don't know now that I didn't know before, because of the 5,000 pages of documents, but what I do know is that Mr. Theis is the director of cabinet affairs, so when he meets with Marc and Craig Kielburger on May 5, they're discussing the plan that's about to go to cabinet. That's what they're discussing in that 25 minutes.

Afterwards Craig writes to Rick Theis and thanks him for the conversation about “streamlining the contribution agreement.” What was streamlined in the agreement as a result of that conversation with Rick Theis, the director of cabinet affairs?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

I would say nothing. I spoke with Mr. Theis about this, and he said that the conversation was very general. WE took the time to explain everything they were saying, and he directed them to Diversity and Inclusion and Youth—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Yes, but you see, that doesn't make sense, because this is happening three days before this is going to cabinet. This isn't something that's just....

You said earlier that his job is to talk to many groups; there was only one group. This was the plan on the table. It was finalized on May 4; they talked about it on May 5, and it was going to cabinet on May 8, and he said he helped to streamline it.

When we look at this report, this plan, we see lots of holes and lack of due diligence. Obviously, he did something in the streamlining, because Rick Theis also said, “Will loop back if I have anything additional on this doc. Let’s be in touch soon regardless.”

What did they streamline in that meeting before it went to cabinet?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

On that last email, I asked Mr. Theis, as a question of courtesy, to connect. You say that generally. In a conversation—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

—you say this and that. It was not specific.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay, but were you given a copy of that document? You're here as the minister in charge. I mean the Kielburger document entitled “Government of Canada & WE - Revised proposal: iwanttohelp - COVID-19 Youth Service Initiative”. Do you have a copy of that?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

No, I don't, Mr. Angus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay, because what surprises me is in that document, there's a photograph of the Prime Minister's wife and mother, and I find that really surprising. It's not just that the Kielburgers knew them; everybody knew the Kielburgers know the Trudeaus, but this is being given to all the senior cabinet ministers. Did Rick Theis say to them, “Whoa, guys; don't put the pictures of the Prime Minister's family in there, because you're putting him in a conflict of interest”? Did Rick Theis or anybody at cabinet say it was really over the top to be that brazen, to use the Prime Minister's wife in order—