Evidence of meeting #29 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Brenda Lucki  Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
André Boileau  Officer in Charge, National Child Exploitation Coordination Centre , Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Philippe Dufresne  Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons

12:25 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

It's such a complicated issue because, as you know, the application of domestic criminal laws and territorial limits [Technical difficulty—Editor] jurisdiction has been a challenge given the global nature of the Internet, which is not bound by traditional borders. International conflict law is such a complex matter. It's very difficult for the RCMP to monitor and ascertain compliance with the mandatory reporting act, particularly in the cases where the companies have a complex international structure and the data is stored in multiple jurisdictions. Those services flow through the Internet and transcend international borders.

However, that's where having strong partnerships internationally, including with the Virtual Global Taskforce, allows us to exchange intelligence and data. That is where we can maximize and get rid of some of those borders, so to speak, because we have to make sure it falls within our protocol.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

Thank you so much.

I wanted to give time for the question to be answered.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Han Dong Liberal Don Valley North, ON

Thank you.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

Thank you, Mr. Dong.

We'll go to Madame Gaudreau now for the next two and a half minutes.

12:25 p.m.

Bloc

Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Good afternoon, Madam Commissioner.

There was an increase in requests for assistance. We're talking about some 100,000 requests. Despite all the difficulties related to investigations, do we have access to statistics?

In 2019, how many investigations were there in response to requests for assistance? Do you have a figure?

12:25 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

In 2019, 11,376 investigational packages were sent to law enforcement agencies of jurisdiction within Canada and abroad. In addition, approximately 63,000 reports were forwarded to law enforcement, primarily internationally, as investigative leads. There's no real requirement for police of jurisdiction in Canada, or in fact for international law enforcement, to advise the RCMP as to whether or not they commence an investigation based on the investigative packages that we give them. However, through our partnerships with the NCECC, we're aware that many of the packages have led to successful outcomes.

12:30 p.m.

Bloc

Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Thank you very much.

Given your limitations in terms of enforcement and the international context, can we create a structure, or even increase the powers, to ensure that we curb this scourge, which is evolving much faster than the legislative system in which we live?

There has been talk of increased funding. Given the increase in the number of reports and possible investigations, do you have any other needs in terms of financial resources?

What do you need? We want to put those needs in the report, if only to establish an international model to help with the conflict about privacy.

12:30 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

Thank you for your question.

It's a great question. Obviously, we look at multiple things. First of all, we look at legislation. We have the mandatory reporting act, as Minister Lametti spoke about. We have to look at compliance within that act, and it has to be more inclusive of all the service providers. It would be very helpful, of course, to have basic subscriber information for that, because that would lead to quicker responses and more fulsome responses. Increased resources never hurts. I would never turn down increased resources.

We also have to look at technology. For instance, I think earlier you spoke of the Arachnid project. That's using technology. That's for children, but we should be using similar technology for adults as well, something that can scour the Internet and take multiple images down. Even if we hit one service provider, like a Facebook or a Twitter or a Pornhub, that image gets downloaded to other platforms. It grows exponentially. The only way to get rid of all that is to have technology scan and scour.

Obviously, we need mandatory reporting of online harm. We need those steps, like the minister spoke about, to preserve that evidence and have that content removed in a timely manner as per what the minister said. All of those are very important.

We always need to be speaking with our international partners. It's interesting that you say that, because when I talk with the Five Eyes partners, obviously we're talking about national security, so we talk about terrorism, but we talk a lot about child exploitation. It's a growing industry. One statistic that shocks me is that since Project Arachnid, which scours the net and takes down images, or requests for images to be taken down, as of April 1 of this year it has sent over 6.9 million requests to [Technical difficulty—Editor] platforms for removal. That number is incredibly huge.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

Thank you, Commissioner.

We'll turn to Mr. Angus now for the next round of questions.

Mr. Angus.

12:30 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Thank you so much, Madam Lucki, for joining us today. We really appreciate it.

I'm looking at the briefing note that was given to you on December 10, 2020. The subject is The New York Times article titled “The Children of Pornhub”. It's interesting, because you talked about strong partnerships, but this is what really struck me when I was reading it: “The RCMP strives to maintain partnerships with private companies”—in this case, we're talking about Pornhub and MindGeek—“as these are effective and support the company's voluntary compliance and adherence to its own Terms of Use.”

I'm wondering why, when we're talking about whether or not criminal acts have been committed, the RCMP is interested in supporting voluntary compliance and the terms of use that are put on the website by the company, as opposed to adhering to Canadian law.

12:30 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

It's all about a combination, because there's the legal side and there's the regulatory side. Of course, we don't deal with the regulatory side.

Let's face it, if we can get companies to voluntarily comply with the regulations, then we are so much further ahead. I know that we've been working with the companies, especially through the NCECC. We've been sharing best practices of other companies who obviously have it right or are doing better. We discuss mechanisms for reporting. We provide the awareness and the education of the mandatory reporting act in the first place, because many of these companies aren't aware of that. It's a combination of—

12:30 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Thank you.

I guess what was shocking to us at committee was to learn that they had never actually complied at all or brought forward anything under their obligations in the mandatory reporting act.

I bring it up—and I know you can't deal with specific cases—because I want to talk about a survivor who reached out to us who's an adult survivor of non-consensual abuse, as we've been talking about children. She's had numerous conversations with the RCMP and she's logged them. In an April 6 phone call with the RCMP, the RCMP told her that Pornhub can't be charged because they're under a blanket waiver. The survivor asked if that meant their terms of service, and the RCMP said, yes, that the terms of service state that they are not liable and it's the user's responsibility. This is a survivor of non-consensual sexual assault.

I know you can't speak to specifics, but it says in your briefing notes that the terms of use were identified, and this is what a police officer is telling a survivor as to why they can't bring forward her case. Why is that?

12:35 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

I would never suggest to any law enforcement that a survivor should not be bringing their case forward. They absolutely should be going to their police of jurisdiction and bringing that case forward so it can be properly reviewed and investigated. It's so important. Obviously that reporting is important for the companies, but it's also important for the survivors to come forward so that we can follow the leads and make sure that it is properly investigated.

12:35 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

The problem is that the RCMP—

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

Thank you, Mr. Angus. Your time, unfortunately, is up. I wanted to offer the opportunity for an answer, so that was an extension of the time.

We'll go to Mr. Viersen now for the next round of questions.

Mr. Viersen, you have five minutes.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the commissioner for being here today as well.

I will probably stick to a vein similar to Mr. Angus. MindGeek appears to have close to a thousand employees based here in Canada. If I see sexual exploitation here in Canada, regardless of where it originated, would I not have the duty to report it?

12:35 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

Yes, but MindGeek.... The actual company, MindGeek, is not all involved with.... Pornhub is but one subsidiary and there are many others subsidiaries of MindGeek. I'm not sure, but many of those employees may not even be aware of some of that.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB

Okay. If you're sitting in an office building in Canada and you come across child sexual exploitation, do you not have a duty to report it, regardless of where it originated?

12:35 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

Yes. Any citizen, not just employees but any person in Canada, any person anywhere, should be reporting it. Absolutely.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB

RCMP documents show that they met with MindGeek in 2018, and MindGeek at that point said that they didn't need to report to Canadian law enforcement because they weren't a Canadian company. Can you confirm that?

12:35 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

Yes. When we had that discussion with MindGeek back in 2018, they asked for support in relation to some automated software to assist in the detection of the online sexual exploitation material, so the NCECC directed them to a third party so that they could have that type of software.

Also, at that time, the issue of the mandatory reporting act was raised, and at the time they said that it doesn't apply to them because they're not a Canadian company, although that doesn't mean they weren't reporting it. They were actually reporting it through the United States. Then the United States gives us that information, and we actually, through MindGeek, have asked them to do a monthly report on what they report to the United States.

It's kind of a non-traditional way that it is being done, but the bottom line is that we are getting the reports.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB

Okay, but this whole piece of jurisdiction still baffles me. Why would they not report it in Canada?

12:35 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

They believe that their servers, the ones to which this applies.... They report through the NCMEC that operates in the States. I can't speak to that particular legislation. However, there's article 2 and article 3 of the mandatory reporting act.

I do have my subject matter export, Mr. André Boileau, who can give you a more fulsome response. He's more adept on the actual articles that they fall under.

April 12th, 2021 / 12:40 p.m.

André Boileau Officer in Charge, National Child Exploitation Coordination Centre , Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Good day.

As per the way that MindGeek is structured, it is unclear at the moment whether the company is fully Canadian or not. The NCECC did have some communications, both with the NCMEC in the United States and the company. To prevent the duplication of reporting, we were able to get monthly summaries. They help us to assess the reports that are coming our way so that we can move them very quickly.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB

Commissioner, have you read the letter that over 78 members of Parliament and senators have sent to the RCMP?