Information & Ethics Committee on April 12th, 2021

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Boileau. I'm sure I'm going to be reading the blues on your answer there to understand everything, since I'm not a lawyer by training, but I thank you for that explanation.

Secondly, the NCECC, on behalf of the RCMP, is the current chair of the Virtual Global Taskforce. Very bluntly, how important is Canada's leadership on this Virtual Global Taskforce?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

That's another great question.

I can't overstate the importance of the leadership of the RCMP in general in many ways. We're sort of the glue that connects all the police agencies together. We are the national repository for intelligence. For us to share that information or to be the lead of that speaks volumes also to the fact that much of our legislation is ahead of that of many countries. That's part and parcel of why it is important that we lead that global task force.

It helps on many fronts, not just domestically, but it does help, and obviously it's a great forum to share best practices and to learn what other countries are doing to combat this. It's also really good to share the intelligence and to do the data sharing as well. I'm just so honoured that Canada is the lead of that.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, how long do I have left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

You have about 20 seconds left.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

With that, I just wish to say thank you to the commissioner and also to you, Mr. Boileau. Excuse me, but I don't have your title offhand. Thank you for your answers. I wish everyone great work.

To the folks at the NCECC, thank you for what you do.

I know that we've only gotten a very small portion of what child exploitation is about. I know that it turned my stomach, and I went home to my young daughters and gave them a big hug when that day was over.

For what they do, I just want to say thank you to those individuals for their professionalism and dedication to service.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

I'll be sure to pass that on. Thank you.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Mr. Sorbara.

We have two final questioners.

Madame Gaudreau, we will go to you for the next two and a half minutes.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Good afternoon, Ms. Lucki.

I would like to have a little more information about the Five Eyes. We talked about the fact that Canada has become a leader. I have one concern: our legislative model is used to maintain the structures. Yet the need to respond is changing so quickly. Earlier, I heard you talk about the increased need for resources.

Who are the Five Eyes? What is the specific role of the group?

Reassure me and reassure the victims that we are thinking about enacting international laws that could help to eliminate the problem. If you are telling us that we are a leader, could you elaborate?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

For the Five Eyes, the countries that are involved are Australia, New Zealand, the U.K., the United States and us. It's important that we work together and, first of all, exchange the intelligence and the data, but also work towards developing and investing in technological solutions. Often some of these countries are working towards technological solutions, so we can use that.

We're also the lead, when you look at child exploitation and you look at [Technical difficulty—Editor], the technology there is the first of its kind and what they've done with the Phoenix group is so incredible. When we look at companies, we like to work with the voluntary principles to counter online child sexual exploitation and abuse, which were developed by the Five Eyes governments through consultation with a wide range of stakeholders, including a leading group of industry representatives. These principles are intended to provide a consistent and high-level framework for industry actors to review safety processes and respond to risks facing users. There's lots of great exchange, all with the goal of eliminating these heinous acts.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Commissioner. We have one—

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Does this continue over time, is it always the same group?

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Madame Gaudreau.

We're going to turn to Mr. Angus as our final questioner this morning.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you so much.

Madam Lucki, in the briefing report to the commissioner there are recommendations, but there's nothing there. I thought maybe they were blanked out, but after hearing from the justice minister and your testimony, maybe there aren't recommendations.

Would you provide whatever recommendations you received in that briefing note to our committee?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

I'm looking at the—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Our version is blanked out, so if you could forward that to us, it would help us in our work.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Some of the recommendations, obviously, are subject to cabinet confidence because they're in the midst of an MC, but we're having discussions with the DOJ about the mandatory reporting act and how to strengthen that.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay, but I have very little time. I'm just asking if you could forward them to us. It would make things simpler.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

We can put in a little section in that letter.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you so much for that.

Madam Lucki, we hear time and time again from survivors that they're not believed. I want to put this on the record because we've heard about how, when you spoke with Pornhub in 2018, Pornhub believed the rules didn't apply and then they were allowed to do this in a roundabout way. I don't see in the Criminal Code that we let companies under investigation do things in a roundabout way.

I'm dealing with a survivor who called the RCMP about non-consensual...a sexual assault video, and they asked, “How does Pornhub know that was illegal?” That's what they said to her on April 6. On May 23 they said, “There are lots of rapes on that site and some of them are acting, so how is Pornhub supposed to know that this survivor isn't acting? How could she prove that she did not consent?”

Then the RCMP asked her how she could prove that Pornhub did it on purpose, meaning posting something that's illegal. Then they asked her how they knew that Pornhub knew what was being uploaded. How did she know they'd even had a chance to view it in advance? Then the RCMP said, yes, but on W5, they said there weren't enough moderators to do the job properly, so they might not have known that it was not consensual, because they didn't have enough people to moderate it.

These are the questions that are being asked of a survivor, time and time again, and on April 6 the RCMP writes to her and says, if she has a complaint regarding Pornhub's actions, she needs to contact the police where Pornhub is located.

For this woman, the RCMP is her provincial police force. She's told that Pornhub is not a Canadian company. Can you tell this survivor where she has to go to make a complaint about Pornhub?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

The revictimization of survivors is totally unacceptable. It is not acceptable by any means. Victims of online child exploitation should really reach out to their local law enforcement agency to file the complaint.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

She did.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

It's unfortunate. I have no words to say—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Do you know where she could make her complaint? The RCMP told her she has to contact the police where Pornhub is located.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Okay, that's not an—