Information & Ethics Committee on April 12th, 2021

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

I call this meeting to order.

This is the 29th meeting of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics.

I'd like to remind members and the public that today's meeting is televised and will be made available via the House of Commons website.

Pursuant to the motion adopted by the committee on Friday, December 11, 2020, the committee is resuming its study on the protection of privacy and reputation on platforms such as Pornhub.

We have with us today the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, the Honourable Bill Blair; the Minister of Justice, the Honourable David Lametti; and the Commissioner of the RCMP, Brenda Lucki. Since we are starting a little late today, I will ask the ministers to introduce the officials who are joining them.

Before we get started, I will ask for the committee's indulgence for just one second. When we last met, we did have a discussion and there was a growing consensus amongst committee members to hear from the law clerk. We have set aside the third hour of this meeting to hear from the law clerk, so he can provide us with information that would be helpful when making decisions with regard to the issues that were being discussed at our last meeting. The law clerk is prepared to answer those questions at one o'clock today. I just wanted to make members aware of that. We will turn to that after the first two hours of this meeting.

Ministers, we will now hear from you.

Minister Blair, I believe you will be going first.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and good morning to members of this committee.

I'd like to begin by thanking all of you for the invitation to join you this morning for this very important and very timely study on a very significant issue.

As I think as everyone recognizes, the sexual abuse and exploitation of a child—any child—in any context, in any platform and in any place is intolerable and unacceptable. It is the most heinous of crimes and deserves society's strongest condemnation and our effective response.

Recording the sexual abuse of a child can have significant lifelong impacts on both the victims and the survivors of this crime. Sadly, as some of these victims grow older, many come to realize that their images continue to be circulated on the Internet, and they are revictimized over and over again as this material is shared.

I'd like to take this opportunity to recognize the remarkable courage and resilience of survivors in coming forward and speaking out. I've had an opportunity to meet with [Technical difficulty—Editor], and I think I share this committee's appall at reports that abhorrent material of this kind has been found on platforms. It is unacceptable that the victims have encountered difficulties in getting companies to remove this illegal content.

Their stories and experiences remind all of us of the important work that we must do and are doing to protect children and youth. The Government of Canada plays a leading role in these efforts to combat online child sexual exploitation and, Mr. Chair, we are taking action to increase awareness and to reduce the stigma of reporting. This is important, because we know that the number of reported cases is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the true scale of this most heinous of crimes.

Internet companies must also do more to protect children, and we are taking steps to hold them to account for their role in this. We are also taking action to bring more perpetrators to justice by supporting efforts to detect, investigate and prosecute these cases. I have asked the RCMP commissioner to continue to work with her provincial and territorial counterparts to address this crime and to ensure that prosecutions are done when deemed appropriate by evidence and by law enforcement.

Canada's national strategy on this issue is led by Public Safety Canada, which works in partnership with the RCMP, the Department of Justice and the Canadian Centre for Child Protection or, as it's very often known, C3P. We are backing this national strategy with ongoing annual funding of more than $18 million. That includes support for Cybertip.ca, a national tip line operated by C3P. It also includes $5.8 million in ongoing funding announced in 2018 to increase the investigative capacity of the RCMP's National Child Exploitation Crime Centre.

On top of this, in budget 2019, we invested $22.2 million over three years in additional funding to better protect children from this horrendous crime. Of that amount, $15 million is specifically aimed at enhancing the capacity of Internet child exploitation units in municipal and provincial police services right across Canada. These specialized units are dedicated to investigating cases of online child sexual exploitation. Investments in budget 2019 are also helping to increase public awareness of this crime, reduce the stigma associated with reporting and work with the digital industry to find new ways to combat sexual exploitation of children online.

At the same time, it's important to acknowledge the complexities and jurisdictional challenges involved in what is often a borderless crime. Perpetrators and victims can be located anywhere in the world, and images of child sexual abuse and exploitation can be shared on platforms that may be headquartered in one country but legally registered in another, with servers in yet a third and different country.

This affects the authority and challenges the ability of Canadian law enforcement agencies to investigate, and the application of Canadian laws, but I am confident that law enforcement continues to do everything possible to investigate these horrendous crimes and prosecute those responsible. International co-operation is key in this regard. I want to assure you that the RCMP and the Department of Justice work very closely with international partners on investigations and prosecutions.

We also work closely with our international allies and partners to find solutions to better protect children and youth. Last year, for example, Canada and its Five Eyes partners launched the “Voluntary Principles to Counter Online Child Sexual Exploitation and Abuse”. These principles are a guide for industry on how to counter this scourge on their platforms.

We recognize also that there is much more work to do, and that's why we will introduce legislation to create a new regulator that will ensure online platforms remove harmful content, including depictions of child sexual exploitation and intimate images that are shared without consent. Public Safety Canada and other departments are working on this proposed legislation with Canadian Heritage, which leads this effort.

We will continue to do everything we can to protect Canadian children and support Canadian survivors of this terrible crime, and we will continue to work with domestic and international partners to investigate cases in which evidence exists and bring the perpetrators to justice.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Minister.

We'll turn to Minister David Lametti.

[David Lametti, Liberal, Minister of Justice]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm accompanied today by François Daigle, the associate deputy minister of the Department of Justice. Thank you for the invitation to appear before you today.

I'd like to make some general comments on some of the issues raised during previous meetings of the committee's study.

I'd like to emphasize that the government is committed to keeping our children safe, including online, as Minister Blair just said. Canada's criminal legislation in this area are among the most comprehensive in the world.

The Criminal Code prohibits all forms of making, distributing, transmitting, making available, accessing, selling, advertising, exporting and possessing child pornography, which the Criminal Code broadly defines as material involving the depiction of sexual exploitation of persons under the age of 18 years.

The Criminal Code also prohibits luring—that is, communicating with a young person, using a computer, including online, for the purpose of facilitating the commission of a sexual offence against that young person. It prohibits agreeing to or making arrangements with another person to commit a sexual offence against a child, and it prohibits providing sexually explicit material to a young person for the purpose of facilitating the commission of a sexual offence against that young person.

Furthermore, the Criminal Code also prohibits voyeurism and the non-consensual distribution of intimate images, which are particularly germane to both the online world and the discussion we are having today.

Offences of a general application may also apply to criminal conduct that takes place online or that is facilitated by the use of the Internet. For example, criminal harassment and human trafficking offences may apply, depending upon the facts of the case.

Courts are also authorized to order the removal of child sexual exploitation material and other criminal content, such as intimate images, voyeuristic material or hate propaganda, where it is being made available to the public from a server in Canada.

In addition to the Criminal Code, as Minister of Justice, I'm responsible for the Act respecting the mandatory reporting of Internet child pornography by persons who provide and Internet service. This act doesn't have a short title, but law practitioners refer to it as the mandatory reporting act.

In English, it's the mandatory reporting act, or MRA.

Under the mandatory reporting act, Internet service providers in Canada have two main obligations. The first is to contact the Canadian Centre for Child Protection when they receive child pornography complaints from their subscribers. This centre is the non-governmental agency that operates Cybertip.ca, the national tipline for reporting the online sexual exploitation of children.

The second obligation of Internet service providers is to inform the provincial or territorial police when there are reasonable grounds to believe that its Internet services have been used to commit a child pornography offence.

While Canada's laws are comprehensive, it is my understanding that there has been some concern as to how they are being interpreted and implemented, especially in relation to the troubling media reports about MindGeek and its Pornhub site.

Since I am the Minister of Justice, it would not be appropriate for me to comment on ongoing or potential investigations or prosecutions, but I would also note that the responsibility for the administration of criminal justice, including the investigation and prosecution of such crimes, including the sexual exploitation offences, falls largely on my provincial colleagues and counterparts.

However, as the Prime Minister stated during question period on February 3:

...cracking down on illegal online content is something we are taking very, very seriously. Whether it is hate speech, terrorism, child exploitation or any other illegal acts....

In fact, the government takes these measures so seriously that the Prime Minister has given four ministers the mandate to address different aspects of online harms. Minister Blair and I are two of these ministers. As he has mentioned, the Minister of Canadian Heritage is one of the lead [Technical difficulty—Editor] as well.

While the Internet has provided many benefits to Canada and the world, it has also provided criminals with a medium that extends their reach—and thus, their victim base—and a medium that elevates the level of complexity of investigations. One complicating factor is that telecommunications networks and services transcend international borders, while the enforcement authority of police, such as the RCMP, is generally limited to their domestic jurisdiction.

Further, under international law, court orders are generally enforceable only within the jurisdiction of a state. With limited exceptions, their enforcement requires the consent of the other state in which they are sought to be enforced.

Canada is obviously not the only country facing these challenges, which is why we continue to work with our international partners to facilitate international co-operation in the investigation and prosecution of these crimes, notably to strengthen bilateral co-operation and negotiation of new international mutual legal assistance treaties in criminal matters in order to address these issues.

Although mutual legal assistance treaties are a universally accepted method of requesting and obtaining international assistance in criminal matters, even in emergency situations, they weren't designed for the Internet age, where digital evidence is a common component of most criminal investigations and where timeliness is essential to the collection of this evidence because of its volatility.

Canada is actively working with its international partners to address these issues. For example, we are currently participating in the negotiation of a second protocol to the Council of Europe Convention on Cybercrime to enhance international co-operation on cross-border access to data.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Minister.

Commissioner Lucki, I'm not sure if you have an opening statement. Do you have an opening statement that you'd like to make? Thank you so much for being here—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I have a point of order.

I mean no offence to Commissioner Lucki, but she's staying for the second hour. Our two ministers will be leaving, which will really interrupt our ability to ask them questions. I'd prefer to ask them questions and have her make her statement in the second hour—unless they're willing to stay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Mr. Angus. She did indicate by a head movement that she did not have an opening statement, so we will proceed to questions by members.

Thanks, colleagues.

Mrs. Stubbs, we'll start with you.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Ministers, thank you for being here.

Minister Blair, 70 MPs across parties have written to you about the cases of child exploitation, child sexual assault material, and instances of human trafficking and rape on MindGeek sites. Early in November and again in December, you assured us of the robust framework on prohibitions in the Criminal Code, which certainly Minister Lametti has just outlined in depth as well.

[Technical difficulty—Editor] December, and you sort of alluded to this. You said you reached out to the RCMP to offer support in response to these abhorrent revelations about MindGeek, Pornhub and other sites. Can you tell committee members what exactly and specifically that looked like, what support you offered?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you very much, Ms. Stubbs.

Yes, I did in fact have a conversation with the RCMP and asked what they needed in order to respond appropriately to the concerns raised by our colleagues with respect to child exploitation and human trafficking. As a direct result of those conversations, we brought forward, in supplementary estimates (C) and the main estimates that were recently voted on, additional funding for the RCMP in response to their concerns.

The responsibility for conducting these investigations is shared between the RCMP and the police of jurisdiction. We asked what they needed in order to do that. We also provided funding available to [Technical difficulty—Editor] police services to have their own child exploitation units. I did have a conversation with the commissioner with respect to what the RCMP needed to respond appropriately to these concerns. As well, we included that funding in the main and supplementary estimates that we brought forward.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

I won't, of course, ask you to comment on any kinds of details about any specifics, because you can't, and I appreciate that. Can you tell members if you have confirmed, just simply, that there are investigations ongoing?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you very much, Ms. Stubbs. You quite rightfully identify that the Minister of Public Safety cannot direct an investigation of any kind. Although I can be briefed on certain aspects of the investigation, it's entirely the responsibility of the RCMP to reveal—

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Right, so is there one going on? For Canadians, have you confirmed that there is one going on?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I can tell you that it's the responsibility of the RCMP—

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Okay.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

—to confirm or not the existence of an investigation. Frankly, I would be very concerned—

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

We'll ask them later.

Minister—

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

—about compromising their effectiveness by revealing information that isn't appropriate for me to reveal.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Sure, but a yes or no, of course, doesn't compromise anything. It would just confirm for Canadians that elected officials and law enforcement have taken action on this very heinous crime, as you've outlined.

In your opening comments, you mentioned funding in the 2018 and 2019 budgets, as well as anticipated legislation for a regulator. I guess what I'm [Technical difficulty—Editor] that, by your own words and also in the words of a variety of experts.... For example, the Friends of Canadian Broadcasting told this committee they had released a report. It is a comprehensive legal analysis showing that under long-standing Canadian common law, these platforms are already liable for the user-generated content they promote and for circulating illegal user-generated content.

Also, as a representative of the Department of Justice said, “The definition of child pornography in the Criminal Code is among the world's broadest. It's not only images that we protect against or criminalize the distribution of, but it is also audio pornography and two forms of written pornography.” He continued, “The problem often is the application of the law, and how that works when the rubber hits the road.”

On behalf of all Canadians, and most importantly on behalf of victims who are heinously exploited and continue to be victimized in Canada right now, and as a call for justice, accountability and consequences on behalf of all of those innocent Canadians, what exactly are you going to do as the minister responsible for public safety to ensure that Canada's laws are actually enforced?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

That's an important question.

I agree with you that the legal framework that currently exists in Canada to deal with child exploitation is a robust one. We know that the RCMP and municipal and provincial police services have a very significant job—and a sometimes challenging job—in gathering the evidence they need. That's why we went to them and asked what resources they needed to conduct their investigations. We have, as a government, ensured that we've provided those resources. We've also asked law enforcement and the RCMP what additional support and tools they need. We've always been very responsive to that.

As I mentioned, there are a number of other initiatives on the way, and I think the Attorney General could perhaps provide more insight. With respect to mandatory reporting of online harms and the removal of those harms, there are a number of important initiatives under way.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Right, but here's the concern Canadians would have. If it is the case, as you've said and experts have said, that a strong legal framework already exists, how does outlining budget commitments from 2018 and 2019 and planning for yet another law help you to ensure that justice is done for victims, these crimes are cracked down on and the perpetrators are held to account?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

It's really important in these investigations to make sure that law enforcement has the tools and the resources it needs to do its job, and we have ensured that. In fact, we've provided $15 million, for example.

When I was the police chief in Toronto, Mrs. Stubbs, I ran a child exploitation unit. We did enormously important work there in identifying the perpetrators and even rescuing children from these horrendous situations. It was important that they be adequately resourced and funded, so we've taken steps, as a government, to ensure that municipal and provincial police services and the RCMP have the resources they need to do their jobs.

As for the actual conduct of their investigations, I would, quite appropriately, leave it to them to comment. However, the government recognizes that we have a responsibility to make sure not only that we have strong legislative tools available to law enforcement, but that they have the capacity and resources to address this most heinous of crimes.

It's also, as I—

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Minister.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

I'll stop you there. I know that our time runs short here.

We'll turn to Mr. Sorbara now for the next round of questions.

Mr. Sorbara.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Good morning, everyone, and happy Monday.

The ethics committee has been undertaking this study for a number of weeks, and we've heard some quite shocking testimony. I can say frankly, probably for the majority of us, that it turned our stomachs in a very bad manner. There were a couple of days when I went home thinking about the testimony I had heard about child exploitation, something we want no child to be put through, whether it is here in Canada or globally. I wish to thank all my colleagues for their work on this, and I thank the ministers here.

I'll first go to Minister Blair and Minister Lametti. I'd like to hear an answer from both of you with regard to the work being done by Minister Guilbeault of Canadian Heritage on a new regulator to address online hate, the sharing of non-consensual images, child pornography and the incitement of violence and terrorism.

Currently within our [Technical difficulty—Editor] National Child Exploitation Crime Centre, which is largely responsible for all incoming and outgoing online-based child sexual exploitation reported offences within Canada. How is this new regulator going to work with the existing NCECC?

If you could keep your answers succinct, that would be great, because I do have follow-up questions.