Information & Ethics Committee on April 12th, 2021

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Yes, I have, and we do have a response. I apologize for the delay. It isn't your traditional one-page response. I think it's almost seven or eight pages. We did have it prepared, and it was ready to go last week until we realized that it needed to be translated. The committee will be getting a response to that letter today. We might slightly delay it if there are other outstanding questions as a result of this committee appearance. We'll add those responses to it.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

You have about 15 seconds left.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

I'll cede my time. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you.

We'll turn to Ms. Shanahan for the next round of questions.

You have five minutes.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

My thanks to the commissioner, Ms. Lucki, for joining us today.

I have listened with real interest to all the testimony we've had today. Again, it's important to note that this study has generated a lot of public interest, which has been very helpful in our efforts to combat child exploitation on the Internet.

I would like to thank all my colleagues who are here today.

In particular, let me thank Mr. Dong and Mr. Erskine-Smith for introducing the motion to the committee in the first place.

That being said, we have to put our money were our mouth is. That's what all colleagues here are very concerned about. I heard the ministers and Commissioner Lucki refer to the challenges in enforcement and the resources that they require. We can understand that, with technology evolving as it does on a constant basis, the challenge today to identify and investigate child pornography online is tremendous.

More than $35 million of funding was recommended by the government in the supplementary estimates and in the mains, and it was voted down by the official opposition. They voted against this additional support for federal policing. What's even more shocking to me is that when other specific allocations were made in the 2021 main estimates, including $6.3 million for the national strategy to combat human trafficking, $4.4 million for the national cybersecurity strategy and $4.2 million for protecting children from sexual exploitation online—exactly what we're talking about here—the Conservatives, the official opposition, voted against them.

Just by the by, as we're talking about the importance of the RCMP and federal policing in this work, at the NDP convention on the weekend there was a motion wanting to defund the RCMP altogether.

I think colleagues can agree—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I have a point of order. We are talking about child rape here. If she wants to do Liberal handstands, she can do them someplace else. We have a few minutes to get answers on whether the laws of this nation are being applied. If she has ridiculous points to make, she can do it elsewhere.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

I don't think that's a point of order, but I think in an effort to bring things to order, Ms. Shanahan will probably note that concern.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I will get my time back, Chair, because—

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Mrs. Shanahan, you have about two minutes left.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Very good, as I do have important questions for the commissioner, because I am struck by the incredible challenges that we have in the identification and investigation of child pornography in this incredibly complex cyberspace world, which in many respects resembles the wild west.

Commissioner, can you comment on the kind of work that you are doing? We heard earlier that the RCMP is chairing the Virtual Global Taskforce. Can you comment on that work and what initiatives are being undertaken at this time?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Although law enforcement is facing a ton of challenges in addressing this crime, we have made some significant progress. In 2019, for example, there were over 100,000 reports that were received, and 362 Canadian victims were identified and uploaded to the Interpol's child sexual exploitation database. That was an increase of 32% from the previous year.

We also have developed and implemented a new and efficient file management system. All of this is with the funding that we got in budget 2018 and 2019-20. It's specific to online child sexual exploitation investigations to increase the effectiveness of analysis capabilities because they are so important.

Like you mentioned, we led a global study related to health and wellness as a part of the partnership with the Virtual Global Taskforce. I can't understate the negative effect of viewing these images day in and day out for anybody who is in this line of work. That study was so important.

Also, there's an international police alliance dedicated to the protection of children. That's what happens with the chair of the Virtual Global Taskforce. With the intel sharing and the data sharing, there's a lot of outreach and education.

We also we work with our national and international partners to help ensure that all citizens are as informed as possible, because it's about that reporting and that information sharing, and it's not just about victims or survivors. It's about the people who are [Technical difficulty—Editor] as well.

The Canadian Centre for Child Protection, the C3P, as we call it, is our national strategy partner. They have developed numerous resources for children, parents, police officers and community members so that they are educated.

Information is power, and I can't stress that enough because it's about people seeing something and then saying something and bringing it forward. That's the best way we can deal with this.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Commissioner.

We will turn to Mr. Carrie now.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Commissioner, I want to explore a point that was mentioned by the ministers and you in regard to the international front.

I was honoured to be part of a round table in Oshawa, and I want to thank the Durham Regional Police human trafficking unit for that. They had representatives from the FBI and Texas. What I found out is if you commit these offences and human trafficking offences in the United States, there's a mandatory minimum of 10 years per person trafficked.

When the Liberals had a chance to do something about this in 2019, they passed Bill C-75, which turned human trafficking into a hybrid offence where somebody could serve fewer than two years in prison, or just pay a fine of $5,000.

What I wanted to ask you is this. As a police officer, if you wanted to have a disincentive to doing this type of business in Canada, what do you think is the greater disincentive? If I'm this business and want to use these exploitive images on the Internet or to engage in human trafficking via the Internet, and I could do the business in Canada versus the United States, which is the greater disincentive to doing the business in Canada versus the United States, the 10-year mandatory minimums or the potential $5,000 fine? I ask because my sources say that these human slave traders can make $250,000 to $300,000 per person trafficked. Where is the better place to do business?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Mr. Carrie, that is a very difficult question. I would pass that to my colleagues from the Department of Justice. I think Robert Brookfield and Normand Wong are on the line as well, and they would probably be better suited to answering that question.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Maybe you can't answer the question, but I think it's quite obvious to anybody watching this right now that, when we had a chance to get tougher on these types of crimes, we actually made the penalties less severe.

You mentioned some statistics in response to my Bloc colleague about how many investigations you've done since 2019, when the Liberals changed this. You have been quite busy, and I understand the numbers. There were thousands of investigations, but how many charges have you actually laid since 2019, since Bill C-75 came into effect?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

I don't have the specific numbers since the onset of Bill C-75. I would have to get you [Technical difficulty—Editor] numbers with regard to the RCMP jurisdiction, and not the entirety of Canada, which would be a disservice because many of the areas that we police are not the centre of where this crime occurs. It tends to gravitate towards the bigger urban centres.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Absolutely. Thank you very much, Commissioner Lucki.

When you're looking at the situation that we're facing.... I come from Oshawa. We're along the 401 corridor, and we have seen an increase in this type of business, which is upsetting to all of us who have been involved in this study. I was wondering if you could provide the committee, first of all, the number of charges that have been laid by the RCMP, but if you could mention how many have been [Technical difficulty—Editor] jurisdiction.

I know the government was having challenges appointing judges for a period of time for federal courts. When the changes were made for human trafficking to be turned into a hybrid offence, it was disappointing to see these indictable offences that originally carried some significant penalties for people in human trafficking to be pushed down to the provincial courts.

Would you be able to tell us off the top of your head how busy the federal courts are right now when they do have to prosecute these types of crimes? Is there a long waiting period between the time charges are laid and the time that victims have to go to court to become revicitimized and testify against the perpetrators?

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

There are about 30 seconds remaining, but I will allow the commissioner to answer.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

I would love to be able to answer that question, but with regard to the delays in the courts, obviously, COVID has contributed to that. I can't give you those specific answers. There is no distinction between the provincial and the federal when it comes to the laying of a Criminal Code charge. It's just brought to court. Obviously, I don't have those specific numbers or the delays.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Thank you for your testimony. I look forward to some of those numbers if you can give them to us.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Mr. Carrie.

We'll [Technical difficulty—Editor].

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Good morning again to everyone.

Commissioner Lucki, thank you for coming today and thank you for your comments to date. I had the pleasure of growing up in a small town in British Columbia with an RCMP detachment there, in Prince Rupert. I know during my high school years we were visited by RCMP officers, for good things, of course, for educational items and so forth, so I want to thank all the RCMP officers. Here in Ontario, many people may not see the RCMP officers on a daily basis, but growing up, we certainly did and I say thank you to them.

With regard to the response that was given, the letter dated February 22, 2021, it was a response, actually, to my colleague Mr. Dong's question in terms of whether [Technical difficulty—Editor] Mr. Stephen White, that three-page letter, which I found to be very insightful, very informative and gave an excellent summary of the RCMP's responsibilities with regard to this area of jurisdiction we're looking at in terms of the study.

In terms of the committee's recommendations, because we'll have to write a report and provide recommendations, on page 3, with regard to the RCMP's ask and recommendations to improving the law.... I can just read it. It's the second paragraph on that page. It says:

Some of the RCMP’s proposed recommendations included the amendment to the MRA Regulations to name the NCECC as the designated agency for notifications with respect to Section 3 (Duty to Notify a Police Officer). This change will better align the reporting activity and make standardization possible. The RCMP understands that the requested change, among others, are now being reviewed by the DOJ.

Can you go into and elaborate on how that change would strengthen the RCMP's ability to prosecute and investigate instances of child exploitation?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

That is a really great question.

I'm going to pass that over to my colleague, André Boileau.

[André Boileau]

Thanks.

To answer your question, it actually would strengthen it, because at the moment, if you look at the MRA, you see that under section 3 Canadian companies actually do their reporting to law enforcement across the country—police officers. There are no specifics as to whom in particular they can actually do their reporting, contrary to section 2, where it is specific because C3P has been identified as the entity to which the reporting needs to be done.

By naming the NCECC in section 3, this would actually allow it to concentrate all the information toward us—all the reporting—and we'd be able to take care of the duplication or the conflicts and then disseminate the information very quickly across the country to the police of jurisdiction.