Information & Ethics Committee on June 7th, 2021

[Charles DeBarber]

I think much of their business model has been built on pirated information.

Once again, Samanatha Cole did a great article that talked about many OnlyFans folks getting ripped off and having their content spread out there, which once again pushes sex workers toward a very exploitative studio system and just eliminates free agency. On top of it, you have people who were paid for their content having it ripped and remixed and put on there. I would argue that the bulk of their content was pirated. They even forced folks to the table, and these studios to the table, to become content partners.

It's the same way that iTunes kind of forced the music industry to the table. They said, “People are going to take it anyway, so come here and we'll bring down the prices and drive down the wages in your industries. You'll get something out of it, at the very least. It's going to be pirated anyway, so what are you going to do about it?”

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

That's a very helpful perspective on this.

I'm running out of time.

Ms. Lukings, I was really struck by your referring to the Privacy Commissioner.

Our Privacy Commissioner put the run on Facebook. He chased Clearview.ai out. He is investigating Pornhub. We have a regulator that does this.

The Liberals want to put in another regulator, not the regulator they're going to have to have for Pornhub, but the regulator who is going to oversee the Privacy Commissioner's work—who actually does excellent work.

I just want to get your perspective on this. If we have the Privacy Commissioner, who's not afraid to take on the giants, dealing with this as an issue of corporate liability, and if we already have laws, do you think we need to have this other set of regulations and regulators to do the job that right now we believe the Privacy Commissioner is probably doing quite well?

[Melissa Lukings]

We don't need more regulations of surface web content. We don't. We just need to use the laws we have. We have a Privacy Commissioner, so let's have that person do their privacy commissioning and apply the laws we have. I don't think we need to add anything, and I absolutely do believe that adding in new regulations will put people at risk of exploitation and other types of harm and will push traffic onto anonymized networks.

We don't need more regulation. That's the opposite of what we need.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. DeBarber, I'd like to go back to the issue of how these images are promoted and exploited and can be found in search engines. One of our survivors said that she has tried again and again and again to deal with police, to deal with anyone, to get her thumbnails and all that information. Even though the video has been taken down, it's still out there. It's still available.

Are there not simple tools we can apply so that when something is taken down, it's actually removed, so that we have the right of survivors not to be harassed by what's still there?

[Charles DeBarber]

Yes and no. It all depends on where it's hosted. It also depends on where you're getting it through. One, there's live content on other websites and other platforms, but then there's the stuff that's right in Google cache. Those are two different animals in terms of getting them purged. You actually have to purge both. Caching is more or less backing the information up. When you click on Google Images, for example, you're usually seeing the cache. When you get rid of the live content, you have to get rid of the cache too—fun fact.

Now, with some companies, like Google, lawyer Carrie Goldberg helped Google write its policy to remove NCP back in 2016, I believe. I'm glad that the rest of the big tech giants, including social media like Reddit and Twitter, emulated that process. The copyright process is still easier, unfortunately. Once again, if that image is repeated 100 times, let's say, then often 100 different notices have to get sent out. You have to do it in both the search engine and on there, but here's the rub—you can get it un-cached on Google, and delisted, but that doesn't get rid of the live content.

Here's one short answer: Give my contact information, please, and I'll help your client pro bono.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay. Thank you so much. I will make that contact. She deserved better.

[Charles DeBarber]

Was there a part of the question that I forgot, sir?

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Our chair is going to get the hook and pull me off the line. I can keep asking more if he's not going to do that....

[Charles DeBarber]

Play me off, Sam.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

I hate to interrupt. I know there are always some good discussions and some good questions that could be answered.

To the witnesses, I certainly want to convey to you that we very much appreciate the fact that you took the time out of your day to bring compelling and informative testimony. Thanks so much.

Colleagues, we will now move to adjourn.

Thank you again to our witnesses.

The meeting is adjourned.