Evidence of meeting #9 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.
A video is available from Parliament.
1:35 p.m.
Liberal
Han Dong Liberal Don Valley North, ON
I was just interrupted by him again on a point of order, and now he's talking about a provincial party, which, even as a Liberal, I have no responsibility to comment on or defend or to say anything about. I question the relevance of that.
1:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative David Sweet
I understand, Mr. Dong.
I've been allowing everybody quite a number of minutes to steer back to relevance, so I'll give Mr. Barrett the same privilege to show us the relevance and come back to his point.
1:35 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Right, Chair, and Mr. Dong was serving as a member of the Ontario Liberal Party when the chief of staff to former Liberal Premier Dalton McGuinty was found guilty and was sent to jail.
1:35 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
I'm going to finish my sentence, guys. You can keep interrupting me.
1:35 p.m.
Liberal
Han Dong Liberal Don Valley North, ON
What Mr. Barrett said is completely untrue. I served between 2014 and 2018, and I wasn't there during the time he is talking about with regard to the provincial Liberals—and again, I don't think it has any relevance to the motion we are debating. I want to correct the record on that point.
1:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative David Sweet
Colleagues, I will remind everybody that points of order are for procedure, and you will always have a chance to correct the record when your speaking slot comes up. I'm certain everybody will take full freedom to do that.
Please continue, Mr. Barrett.
1:40 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Right.
Chair, the criminal case that saw Mr. David Livingston, the former chief of staff to Ontario Liberal premier Dalton McGuinty, convicted and found guilty of those charges certainly did take place when Mr. Dong was serving in the provincial legislature. The ruling stated:
Mr. Livingston's plan to eliminate sensitive and confidential work-related data, in my view, amounted to a “scorched earth” strategy, where information that could be potentially useful to adversaries, both within and outside of the Liberal Party, would be destroyed.
We've just seen the energy and effort that go into the Liberal members' attempts to prevent substantive points being put on the record with respect to the record of Liberal parties. Mr. Drouin, who had those excited interventions, worked for that premier. Here we are, trying to get the truth. Here we are, trying to get to a vote. The Liberal members on the committee objected to the ruling of the chair, lost the chair challenge, and now, it seems, even though they got their say, because they didn't get their way, are not willing to let this come to a vote.
The sensibilities of Canadians are rightly offended by the 33-hour-plus filibuster that we have here. We heard from Mr. Dong a list of expenditures. Now, expenditures shouldn't be the sole measure of success; we need to see results as well. I can tell you that the resources expended on 33 hours of filibustering could be much better spent, and the folks in my community, who are looking for all kinds of help, don't see a government that's serious about transparency. We heard a very long speech about transparency from Mr. Dong while engaged in a cover-up filibuster.
The points have been made many times over, and it is certainly high time for it to come to a vote. This is how democracy works. If the Liberals have made convincing arguments to a sufficient number of their colleagues on both sides of the aisle, then they will carry the day and they will be able to defeat the motion. If not, the motion will go forward, and we will take a look at the CSSG, the awarding of the contract to Baylis Medical, and Palantir. We were going to have someone from Speakers' Spotlight come and talk about these documents, and they can fully explain their process and clarify what has been unclear and provide the information that the committee has been looking for. Then we can move on.
We've heard from many Liberals, permanent members of the committee and otherwise, and they were loath to hear about the connections between the provincial Liberals and their team, but they exist. We've seen that it's important, that if documents aren't provided and aren't tabled on the record, there is a risk that they can be destroyed. Time is of the essence for this committee to get documents. Time is of the essence for this committee to hear testimony, be it on the ventilators or Mr. MacNaughton or the CSSG. This was a half-billion-dollar contribution agreement for the CSSG, originally billed as $912 million, to the benefit of $40 million-plus to the Kielburgers, who themselves drew the connection between members of the Trudeau family and their organization in their submission to cabinet.
They're the ones who put pictures of the Prime Minister's family in their proposal to the federal cabinet. That's not something the opposition did. That wasn't us looking to create a witch hunt. It was that organization. That was their conscious choice in an effort to benefit from a lucrative agreement at the height of a pandemic when they needed that contract quite badly, since they were laying off many employees.
Chair, this committee has heard the arguments from all sides. It is certainly high time for us to have a vote.
As a final note, I would say to my colleagues that if they don't like hearing back what they have already talked about in committee, if they find it offensive later when repeated to them—and I'm happy to read the blues into the record again for Mr. Sorbara, if he'd like—they should be mindful of how they spend their hours—
1:45 p.m.
Liberal
Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
On a point of order, Mr. Chair, Mr. Barrett has opened the door for me to clarify the record by reading the blues to provide exactly what was said at committee. I took a look at it. I wasn't at the committee meeting when this exchange took place, so I decided to look it up. Here it is, sir.
1:45 p.m.
Liberal
Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
Mr. Sorbara said:
The last example I want to turn our attention to is that of a great iconic Canadian company called Stanfield's, which manufactures numerous clothing articles. The company can trace its origins back to Nova Scotia in the 1850s. Former company chairman and CEO—
Then he was interrupted, much as just happened here, Mr. Chair, by Mr. Angus, who said:
I don't remember that anybody has had any interest in underwear as part of this pandemic study. If the Liberals are going to continue to drag us down the hole of filibustering, the issue that they agreed to is with regard to Mr. Baylis, because he is a former member of Parliament, which makes it pertinent.
If they're going to start to now talk about underwear, Mr. Chair, they are certainly wasting our time and taxpayers' time.
Mr. Chair, as you can see, it was Mr. Angus who made that connection, and not Mr. Sorbara.
Thank you, sir.
1:45 p.m.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Mr. Chair, I just think that watching Mr. Fergus go to bat for Stanfield's underwear from the 1850s on a point of order on what Mr. Sorbara had said about Stanfield's underwear shows that this committee is turning into farce. I think it's not a point of order; it's just more obstruction.
Perhaps Mr. Barrett has something else to say, or he can finish and we can continue on, but I think that Mr. Fergus's last interjection pretty much sums up what we've been subjected to and what the Canadian people have been subjected to for the last 33 hours.
1:45 p.m.
Liberal
Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
On a point of order, Mr. Chair, this is exactly the reason we need to make sure that we all have interests in this and—
1:45 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
I have a point of order, Chair, on this point of order.
1:45 p.m.
Liberal
Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
—there is too much....
At least allow me to make the point of order so that you can figure out what your point of order is.
1:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative David Sweet
Order.
Colleagues, give me a second.
Mr. Barrett, please, I've always let everyone extinguish their point of order first, even though I have to say, colleagues, as much as I respect and like working with you all, that the vast majority are not procedural. The vast majority are comments, but I have allowed everybody that luxury.
Mr. Fergus, if you could make it brief, that would be great, and then I'll go on to Mr. Barrett.
1:45 p.m.
Liberal
Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
I'll make it very brief.
What is unfair, sir, is the attribution, the drive-by smear that is put to another honourable member when it's actually the person who raised it. Mr. Angus just did it perfectly again. He just decided to mock the situation when in fact he is the source of that statement. That's what I am trying to point out.
1:45 p.m.
Liberal
Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
It's no more a point of order than what you had raised, Mr. Angus, or Mr. Barrett.
1:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative David Sweet
Colleagues...Mr. Barrett, you already have the floor; you don't need to arrest the floor with a point of floor. Now that they've been extinguished, you can go ahead.
1:45 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Chair, Mr. Fergus just said that.... First of all, he didn't hear me. He was raising a point of order to the point of order on his point of order.
When I looked to interject on that point—on which I was not given the floor by you, Chair—he then said that my point was invalid. This is supreme arrogance.
I want to read to you from the blues, and I quote, from November 3, 2020. At 5:10 p.m. Francesco Sorbara, Vaughan—Woodbridge, Ontario, said, “I think that boxers are better than underwear, but that's a whole different story.”
Chair, this was the point that Mr. Fergus.... You wanted to read the blues into the record; there it is.
We have Liberal members who want to offer their—