Evidence of meeting #102 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pia.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Acting Director General, Conservation and Protection, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
We benefit from having three labs that are especially designed to encase evidence, so they're air-gapped and secure. All information, including information that might be collected in the evidentiary collection process and private information that might not directly be relevant, is housed in this area as well. It's not in the cloud. It's not on the network, and it's well protected. There is limited access to these facilities with 24-hour surveillance, and only the examiners use it with fishery officer guidance.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Ms. Khalid and Mr. Napier.
Mr. Villemure, you have the floor for six minutes.
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to thank everyone for being here this morning. It will give us an opportunity to examine the subject in greater depth. On the basis of what I heard earlier, I must say that it seems to be more of an exercise in obfuscation.
Mr. Walker, your concern for privacy strikes me as insubstantial at best. Could you please give us further details?
Chief Enforcement Officer, Department of the Environment
We take privacy very seriously. I'll explain the problem we encountered.
When the program was introduced, we believed the existing measures were adequate to counter any privacy concerns stemming from our work. However, in view of the changing overall pattern of our work, we decided that the time had come for a complete review of these measures, with additional precautions to ensure that there was a proper framework for them and that they would include a privacy impact assessment.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
So there was an ongoing operation at the department. At some point, you acquired tools of this kind with a view to determining how you might be able to use them. Later, the Treasury Board report advised you that privacy impact assessment was needed. However, it does not appear to have been done.
In fact, a CBC story reported that some departments, including yours, had not done a privacy impact assessment or had not responded to questions in connection with the story.
You didn't mention that you were doing an assessment of this kind. According to the CBC story, none were done.
Chief Enforcement Officer, Department of the Environment
You may be right. I can't remember exactly how we responded in connection with this story.
It was probably the third time in two years that the media had asked us questions like that, and information about obtaining this type of software is publicly accessible on the Internet. In each instance, I don't think we attempted to hide the fact that we were using tools like these in fulfilment of our mandate. On the other hand, I can't recall whether or not we had told the journalists that we were about to undertake an assessment.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
According to the stories we know about, the answer was no. That may not have been correct, but the answer was no.
You've been caught out on that one.
Chief Enforcement Officer, Department of the Environment
No. We sometimes field questions from the media about the use of various tools, including the software we've been discussing today. As I mentioned, that was the second time we received a request of that kind in 2023. I believe the first came from the Journal de Montréal.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
When people from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police or the Canadian Security Intelligence Service appear before the committee, we take surveillance tools for granted. It's expected. When people from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans or the Department of the Environment appear together, it's assumed that you're monitoring trees or the ocean.
There are no doubt good reasons for doing this, but I'd like to hear what you have to say about it. Is it proportionate to the risk you are attempting to mitigate?
Chief Enforcement Officer, Department of the Environment
Definitely. Not only that, but I will refrain from using the term "surveillance", because that's not at all what we're doing with this software. It's used to collect data from electronic devices. It's like opening a drawer while executing a search warrant. We only do it when there's a warrant.
Bloc
Chief Enforcement Officer, Department of the Environment
It depends on the subject. My colleague's expertise might be helpful to you.
Director General, Environmental Enforcement, Department of the Environment
By all means.
When we look at the data, we're only looking for information we would like to find in connection with the investigation process. So if we look at what is…
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
I'm going to interrupt you briefly. You're looking for what you're trying to find so that you can find what you're looking for. That makes sense. But you are with the environment department. You're not looking for bandits.
Director General, Environmental Enforcement, Department of the Environment
For example, we apply the laws that relate to environmental protection and wildlife. For example, if a mining company has committed an infraction under the Fisheries Act, we will be looking for any evidence they have that shows they knew they were conducting such an event that might cause a spill, or for what kind of technical information they have that might be relevant to the investigation.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
This tool makes me think of a bazooka. Is the means proportionate to the suspected offence?
Director General, Environmental Enforcement, Department of the Environment
I definitely believe so. We can't obtain the information without these tools. For example, if we have a computer…
Bloc
Director General, Environmental Enforcement, Department of the Environment
None that we could use if we want to continue the investigation.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
What was previously done over the past 50 years before the tool existed?
Director General, Environmental Enforcement, Department of the Environment
We had paper. There were no electronic devices.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Okay. So it's the introduction of the electronic devices that changed everything.
Thank you very much.
