Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 27th, 2024

[Commr Michael Duheme]

In all honesty, I would say we learned that investigating within very tight parameters without having all the information required is a challenge. It brings us to the issue of transparency or the government’s influence regarding RCMP investigations, which is not—

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

If we don’t have all the information, it’s hard to say that justice was done.

Right?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I would not disagree with what you said. However, we don’t know what other information we could have obtained. There may have been a great deal more, or maybe less. We cannot speculate on it.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

What is interesting is that, in theory, it could exonerate as much as it could indict. It’s just that we don’t know.

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I agree with what you said.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

As a member of the committee and a legislator, I prefer us being able to make statements. However, I understand that’s not your job. That’s our mandate, to look at these things.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Villemure.

Mr. Green, you have two and a half minutes.

Go ahead.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

I want to give you the opportunity, with the ability to have hindsight, given your participation and now your ascension to the position of commissioner of the RCMP.... Are there any lessons that could be drawn or recommendations that you'd like to provide to this committee regarding the SNC-Lavalin affair? For instance, if the same situation were to come up again, would you take the same approach? If so, why? If not, what would you do differently?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I'll let Mr. Pincince talk about the approach, but I will go back to Monsieur Villemure's question with regard to transparency. That's something that is not in my ballpark, but, again, the parameters we had to work with were challenging, but we understood that those were the parameters we had to work with. If there's a common agreement where we have to expand that—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I want to go to that.

Do you believe the RCMP should have unrestricted access to cabinet confidence as a part of its investigations?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

It could facilitate some of the investigations, but I'm not familiar with—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I'll put it another way.

You mentioned that nobody is above the law.

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I did say that.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Does cabinet confidence put a shield between the cabinet, the PMO and the law when you're dealing with investigations?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

It does, because we don't have access to all the information.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Do you believe the RCMP should have access to the cabinet information when investigations are happening to ensure that nobody is above the law in Canada?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I'll go back. Cabinet confidence is there for a reason. I think the interpretation of cabinet confidence, which we had a discussion on earlier, sometimes differs from one person to another.

I think there's a reason for that being there, and I'm not an expert to explain what the reason is.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Sure.

Often it's national security. It would be my opinion that, to your point, when the client is both the solicitor and the client, it becomes very murky. I think those need to be separated, as per the Honourable Jody Wilson-Raybould's recommendations, and many other legal recommendations of the same.

I digress.

In light of the “Trudeau II Report”, do you believe that amendments to the Conflict of Interest Act or other legislation or policies governing the conduct of public office holders are needed to prevent the alleged actions by Prime Minister Trudeau in the report going forward?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I'm not aware of the whole Conflict of Interest Act, so it would be inappropriate for me to comment on whether any changes are needed, or whatnot.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Do you believe the Ethics Commissioner has the ability to determine what is criminality, in order to make referrals to the RCMP for investigation?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Give a quick response, please.

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I would assume that, because it's in the act that he's to stop his investigation if there's criminal wrongdoing. I would imagine the person who is the commissioner has an understanding of what's criminal in order to refer it.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Green.

Before we go to Mr. Barrett, we're doing five and five. I am going to extend the meeting by about 15 minutes. We have the resources to do an additional five and five, and then two and a half and two and a half past that point.

Mr. Barrett, go ahead, please, for five minutes. Then Ms. Khalid follows next.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

An official inquiry of the ministry, in Order Paper question Q-1649, concerning communications and pressure by government regarding the SNC-Lavalin affair on June 19, 2023 revealed a call from a Trudeau minister who was not then the public safety minister—but is now—to the RCMP. The RCMP described the call as “seeking to speak to the Deputy before Question Period regarding a media story about an RCMP investigation that was ATIP'd.”

Do all ministers have a hotline to the deputy of specialized policing services for updates on criminal investigations into their government?