Evidence of meeting #105 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investigation.
A recording is available from Parliament.
February 27th, 2024 / 12:15 p.m.
Commr Michael Duheme
Mr. Chair, I'll let individuals draw their own conclusion. What I come back to is that we operate within a set of regulations and parameters. Unfortunately, we made the effort to get additional information, and it was refused.
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
It's a two-tiered system of justice, I would say.
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Commissioner.
Thank you, Mr. Cooper.
Mr. Bains, you have six minutes. Go ahead, please.
12:15 p.m.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Commissioner and Sergeant Pincince, for joining us today.
Like Mr. Sorbara, I also have RCMP in my city—Richmond, British Columbia—so I want to give them a shout-out as well. Thank you for your service and the work you do.
I think you mentioned earlier the Ethics Commissioner. You said that nobody is above the law, that the threshold wasn't met, that the production order wasn't warranted to go forward, and that the Ethics Commissioner had access to more information than the RCMP.
We heard from my colleague across who talked about all of the different interviews that the Ethics Commissioner went through, so, clearly, the Ethics Commissioner's office had more information. Is it the duty of the Ethics Commissioner to provide documents if they find something of a criminal nature taking place?
12:15 p.m.
S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince
So, yes—
12:15 p.m.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
What's your understanding of that? Can you talk a little bit about that, and what your relationship is with the Ethics Commissioner?
12:15 p.m.
S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince
Yes, Mr. Chair. Of course, I'm not going to call myself an expert on the matters of the Conflict of Interest Act. The commissioner of that department is doing an exemplary job to try to pursue these examinations.
As far as my understanding of the situation in relation to the Ethics Commissioner goes, pursuant to the Conflict of Interest Act, there are some compulsory powers that are available to the Ethics Commissioner to really conduct a very fulsome examination of the matter.
Of course, with these compulsory powers, which are to summon witnesses or to obtain documentary evidence that can be summoned, at the same time, with these additional powers does come a confidentiality clause that's set in place to allow the Ethics Commissioner to conduct an examination and come to a conclusion on the balance of probabilities in relation to the conduct of an elected official or a public office holder.
12:20 p.m.
Commr Michael Duheme
If I may, Mr. Chair, just to add, the commissioner has a duty to suspend his examination if he comes across any criminal wrongdoing, which was not the case in this case.
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
12:20 p.m.
Commr Michael Duheme
According to my understanding of the Conflict of Interest Act, and it's in the investigative report that's been provided, there's a duty there that, if there's any criminal wrongdoing, he's to suspend his activities, and it normally then gets reported to us for follow-up.
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
So it's safe to say that the Ethics Commissioner, in this case, interviewed all of those people Mr. Berthold listed and came to a conclusion. If there was some wrongdoing or criminality there, he would have to suspend, at that point, and then pass along that information to the RCMP. Is that safe to say?
12:20 p.m.
Commr Michael Duheme
From my understanding, that is correct, yes.
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
I just want to clarify one more thing. I'm not sure if we got the answer. The only reason that the final letters to Ms. Wilson-Raybould and Mr. Scheer about your investigation concluding.... It was an administrative reason, just because there was a turnover and information that needed to get out just didn't get out earlier.
12:20 p.m.
Commr Michael Duheme
Yes, and that's what I said. It's internal in the sense that there were several key players who moved along. The report was completed in the spring of 2021, and that's on us. We put measures in place to make sure that there's a monthly reporting on sensitive files of this nature.
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
You talked about the number of interviews you concluded throughout the investigation, and we know that you've indicated that you're very comfortable at this point. Would you still say that after reviewing all of the documents that you got from the Ethics Commissioner? What did the Ethics Commissioner pass along?
12:20 p.m.
S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince
Mr. Chair, we reviewed the report from the Ethics Commissioner. Again, because of confidential clauses that are within the Conflict of Interest Act, we were not privy to the extent of the material evidence that the Ethics Commissioner reviewed. Of course, we have to rely on the excerpt of his report.
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
I just have a hypothetical. Again, the RCMP is independent. If I were to say I need you to look into this investigation, to please investigate this matter, some matter, you don't just take it at somebody's word. You don't take orders from politicians. Nobody is above the law. You would have to look at the evidence and then you would move forward with any case. Is that correct?
12:20 p.m.
Commr Michael Duheme
I would say you're correct, in the sense that most of the time we need someone to lay a complaint that we can investigate. Just a sidebar saying “Investigate this” doesn't cut it.
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. Bains.
Mr. Villemure, you have the floor for six minutes.
12:20 p.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Pincince, I have a few questions for you, but I would like to come back to what was said previously for a moment. I found my colleague’s question a little startling. He mentioned the list of people questioned by the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner. You met with four of them. That piqued my curiosity.
Since when does the RCMP consult other organizations’ investigations to determine whether it should conduct an investigation?
12:25 p.m.
S/Sgt Frédéric Pincince
Mr. Chair, we use the information available and examine it to determine its value for a potential investigation.