Information & Ethics Committee on March 19th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I call this meeting to order.

Good morning, everyone.

Welcome to meeting No. 108 of the House of Commons of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(h) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, October 30, 2023, the committee is resuming its study of the decision of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police to not pursue a criminal investigation in relation to the SNC-Lavalin affair.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. As a reminder to all who are participating, make sure you keep the earpieces away from the microphones in order to avoid potential injury to our interpreters.

I'd now like to welcome our witness for today, Mr. Michael Wernick, formerly Clerk of the Privy Council and currently Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management at the University of Ottawa.

Before we begin, I will ask again for unanimous consent to reset the clock at the top of the hour to give the opportunity to our Bloc and NDP members for six minutes of questioning.

Do I have unanimous consent on that?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you.

First of all, Mr. Wernick, I want to welcome you to committee. I understand that you do not have an opening statement today, so we will go right to questions.

Mr. Barrett, you have six minutes. Go ahead.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Sir, has the RCMP contacted you regarding Justin Trudeau's role in the SNC-Lavalin scandal?

Chair, his response was not audible.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Yes.

Mr. Wernick, I'm sorry. You'll have to unmute.

There you go.

[Michael Wernick, Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual]

I'm sorry. It's the usual Zoom mute-unmute.

I did hear the question, sir. No, they have not.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

But you were interviewed for the Ethics Commissioner's report, the “Trudeau II Report”, on the SNC-Lavalin scandal. Is that correct?

[Michael Wernick]

Yes. I retired in April 2019, the Easter weekend. I was interviewed one time by the commissioner in the preparation of the report. I was interviewed by the RCMP that summer about the lobbying activities of principals of SNC-Lavalin.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Did you have any further contact with the RCMP with respect to SNC-Lavalin following that interview in 2019?

[Michael Wernick]

Never prior and never after that.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Did the RCMP ask you any questions dealing with Justin Trudeau?

[Michael Wernick]

That was five years ago. I do not remember the flow of the interview. We basically went over the material that you will see in the commissioner's report.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

You don't remember if the Prime Minister's name was said by the RCMP. I can tell you that as part of complaints that I've filed with the RCMP, I have been interviewed by them. It was years ago, and I remember very distinctly how that interview went. I certainly would remember if the Prime Minister's name was mentioned. It was, I can tell you, in my case.

Was the Prime Minister's name mentioned—was a question asked of you about Prime Minister Justin Trudeau—when you were questioned by the RCMP?

[Michael Wernick]

The interview took the form of going through the chronology of events—who met with whom, who spoke with whom, who communicated with whom and so on. So yes, the role of the Prime Minister came up, because I was in contact with the Prime Minister during that period when I was clerk.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

The question of obstruction of justice, which is a criminal offence, was raised with respect to the Prime Minister's involvement in the SNC-Lavalin scandal. These are, of course, events in which you were involved. Most Canadians would have expected that you would have been interviewed on that subject. Do you think you should have been interviewed in the RCMP's pursuits with respect to obstruction of justice concerns or allegations about Prime Minister Justin Trudeau?

[Michael Wernick]

I have no view on that, Mr. Cooper. It's up to the police whom they decide to interview.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Thank you very much. My esteemed colleague Mr. Cooper will have questions for you later. I'm Michael Barrett. I did have the opportunity to ask you questions when you appeared at the justice committee about the SNC-Lavalin scandal. I'm glad we have you here today as well.

Do you have any view on who the RCMP should have interviewed? We have a list of who the Ethics Commissioner interviewed and we know who the RCMP interviewed, but those lists aren't the same. Justin Trudeau, Katie Telford, Gerry Butts—do you think they should have been interviewed to exonerate the Prime Minister?

[Michael Wernick]

I have no view on whom the police should choose to interview. Not every issue of ethics or behaviour rises to the level of a preliminary investigation, fact-finding or examination. Not all of those move on to a full investigation in the terms that journalists and politicians use them.

These are decisions to be made by the police and by the prosecutorial service.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

We know that the Prime Minister broke the law. It's a matter of public record that he broke the Conflict of Interest Act. There was a finding of that by the Ethics Commissioner.

We know there's a big gap in the RCMP's work. It's very curious how that came to pass.

If the RCMP were to pursue an investigation into the SNC-Lavalin scandal and Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, would you fully co-operate?

[Michael Wernick]

Of course.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

If another law enforcement agency—the Ontario Provincial Police, for example—were to undertake an investigation into the SNC-Lavalin scandal, would you fully co-operate?

[Michael Wernick]

Of course.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Do you possess any documents related to the SNC-Lavalin scandal or the deferred prosecution agreement?

[Michael Wernick]

No. I left government in April 2019—five years ago.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

The question wasn't when you left government. That's the second time you've offered us that date. The question was about you having the documents.