Evidence of meeting #108 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was documents.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:35 a.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
The Commissioner's report provides a full interpretation of it all.
11:35 a.m.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Mr. Chair, I just want to personally note that I thought you sent me a very kind note yesterday and I just want to thank you for that.
11:35 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
In the spirit of former prime minister Mulroney, yes, I did send that note.
11:35 a.m.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Mr. Wernick, thank you for being here. I think it is déjà vu for both of us to have Mr. Cooper, Mr. Barrett and me ask you questions. I really appreciate your being here.
Can I start by asking if you were involved in any way in the decision of the RCMP to close the investigation?
11:35 a.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I've had no contact ever with the RCMP about any investigation or operations.
11:35 a.m.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Mr. Wernick, were you involved in any way in the interactions between the RCMP and the Privy Council Office related to the request by the RCMP to waive cabinet confidences, or, as you had said you left in April 2019, were you no longer there?
11:35 a.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Before I left, I recused myself from any discussions and decisions about the divulgation or keeping of documents. As soon as I was invited to the justice committee I ordered that a hold on retention be put on all documents in the possession of the Privy Council Office and I turned over all of those issues about redaction and divulgation to my deputy clerk.
Then, of course, I left in mid-April and after that it would have been a matter for my successor.
11:35 a.m.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
All right. As I understand, then, in terms of interactions with the RCMP about cabinet confidences, you had nothing whatsoever to do with that. Is that right?
11:35 a.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I had no conversations with the RCMP about any aspect of the SNC-Lavalin matter, except, as I said, interviewing about SNC's lobbying activities.
March 19th, 2024 / 11:35 a.m.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
I understand.
Basically, you really have nothing much to say about the RCMP's investigation because, of course, you would have no personal knowledge of it. I also understand that the committee, the clerk and the chair properly invited you, but I also don't quite understand why you're here.
However, while you are here, can I ask another question that I've been curious about? I believe this was before you came to the justice committee, so you would perhaps have been involved. When the Privy Council Office originally determined whether or not there would be a waiver of cabinet confidence to permit Ms. Wilson-Raybould to testify, was that the largest waiver of cabinet confidence ever when she was permitted to divulge matters to the justice committee? Would others be within a certain scope?
11:35 a.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I'm not sure I can answer that authoritatively. There were two large ones that I was aware of when I was clerk. One was to the Norman trial and the other was the waiver for the Attorney General.
11:35 a.m.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
I know Mr. Green got into this, but what would be the considerations you would give in terms of determining, at the Privy Council Office, whether or not to grant such a waiver? How would you balance public interest versus confidentiality, etc.?
11:35 a.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
There is a public interest in the confidentiality of cabinet discussions. It's how we make cabinet work, so there is a large public interest in maintaining the convention and the practice of cabinet confidentiality. There may be a specific public interest in an inquiry, a trial, criminal proceedings or something like that, so that's the judgment that has to be exercised about weighing one public interest against another public interest.
11:35 a.m.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Would it be different when you have a request from a police force doing an investigation versus some other type of request such as a request from a committee of Parliament or a request from somebody else?
11:35 a.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I think there would be a little bit of judgment in terms of whether the information would be kept in confidence by the person receiving it and what they would do with it. There's a very structured process by a commission of inquiry like the one that's under way now. There's a very structured process if you give it to the courts, and the courts operate under various laws and practices, and there are practices by parliamentary committees. Then there's just public disclosure, putting stuff out on the Internet.
Yes, it would certainly have some bearing on what would happen to the documents if they were used. I always took the principle to disclose as much as possible if it were for part of the justice system, courts, officers of Parliament, tribunals, investigations, commissions of inquiry and so on.
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
11:40 a.m.
Conservative
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I cede it, so Mr. Cooper or whoever's next gets it.
I could give the three seconds left of my time to Mr. Villemure.
11:40 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
I gave a little more time to Mr. Berthold, but it was only about 20 seconds.
Mr. Villemure, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.
11:40 a.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Wernick, I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I want to remind you that constantly referring to a five-year-old report by the justice committee, providing evasive answers, or saying that you don't remember, is not sufficient for this committee.
I'd like to ask you the following question. The conversation between you and Ms. Wilson‑Raybould was recorded and transcribed, and I will now loosely translate some of what you said. You specifically said that you believed the Prime Minister was not asking her to do anything appropriate or interfere. He simply asked her to use all the tools she lawfully had at her disposal. That is what you said and I'd like your comments on it.
11:40 a.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
You have the Commissioner's interpretation of it all.
11:40 a.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I have nothing to add.