Evidence of meeting #108 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was documents.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
In his testimony to the Ethics Commissioner, Justin Trudeau testified that he did make that request.
To put some context with respect to that call, hours before you initiated that call, you met with the Prime Minister; his chief of staff, Katie Telford; and his then-principal secretary, Gerald Butts, in which SNC-Lavalin and the issue of a deferred prosecution agreement came up.
12:40 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Yes, that was our last meeting before the Christmas holidays and the two-and-a-half week break before we all came back in January, so it was—
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Thank you for that, Mr. Wernick. No. I appreciate it. You answered the question.
12:40 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Mr. Brassard, can I finish my answer?
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Hang on.
Mr. Cooper, please....
I see your point of order. I'm going to maybe solve what you're going to be asking.
I would just ask that you give Mr. Wernick an opportunity to answer the question, please, Mr. Cooper.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
12:40 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
It was one of many issues that we discussed at a Christmas holiday wrap-up meeting.
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Okay. Thank you for that.
To put further context with respect to that call, one day before that call, Jody Wilson-Raybould's chief of staff was summoned by Katie Telford and Gerald Butts, and was told by Butts and Telford that they didn't want to hear anything more about legalities. They wanted to get a deferred prosecution agreement done.
When the Prime Minister asked you to make this call, he was effectively giving Jody Wilson-Raybould her last chance to make the decision that he wanted before he fired her, wasn't he?
12:40 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I'm not aware of the conversation that Ms. Telford and Mr. Butts had at the time. When I had my call, I wouldn't have been aware of that, and this was before Mr. Brison resigned from cabinet and created the need for a cabinet shuffle.
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Mr. Wernick, that conversation of Ms. Telford and Mr. Butts is now well documented, backed up by contemporaneous notes taken by Ms. Wilson-Raybould's chief of staff, so let's look at the facts.
After months of pressure on the Attorney General and the day following the meeting where the Prime Minister's chief of staff and principal secretary tell Ms. Wilson-Raybould's chief of staff, we don't care about legalities, just get it done, you give Ms. Wilson-Raybould a call at the request of the Prime Minister, wherein you state that the Prime Minister is quite determined that he's going to find a way to get it done one way or another, that he is in a very firm mood about this, and you were worried about a collision occurring between him and her. Those are some very strong words—veiled threats.
Why would you use those words if in fact it wasn't Jody Wilson-Raybould's last chance to make the decision the Prime Minister wanted before he was going to fire her?
12:40 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
You're hypothesizing an intention to fire her, which I was certainly not aware of at the time.
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Well, you issued a number of threats after the Prime Minister's chief of staff and principal secretary had, only a day prior, said, we're done with the legalities, and then, guess what? Two and a half weeks later, after this phone call following the Christmas break, she was fired as Attorney General.
Taken together, I would submit that there is no reasonable conclusion that can be drawn other than the Prime Minister fired Jody Wilson-Raybould when she wouldn't acquiesce to his demands to interfere in the criminal prosecution of SNC-Lavalin.
Do you know what that's called, Mr. Wernick? It's called obstruction of justice, isn't it?
12:40 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
That's for the police to determine.
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Mr. Wernick, you couldn't back up with any credibility the issue of SNC-Lavalin moving its headquarters. What about the jobs? What analysis had the government taken that at least 9,000 jobs were on the line?
12:40 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I think that was all covered at the justice committee and the production of documents for that. I don't have any of that material in front of me—
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
The answer you gave to Ms. May when she posed that question to you is that no analysis had been done.
12:45 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
There had been statements by the company on market disclosures, and there had been representations by the company, which are on the record.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
This was a pressure campaign made by the Prime Minister and not in the public interest. It was clearly the Prime Minister acting in the interest of SNC-Lavalin, and that's exactly what the Ethics Commissioner found.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. Cooper.
Mr. Housefather, go ahead for five minutes.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Thank you so much, Mr. Chair. It's always nice to watch Mr. Cooper as a prosecutor. He certainly fires off those questions well, but, Mr. Wernick, I want to come back to the issue.
As far as I recollect, Jody Wilson-Raybould was shuffled from one cabinet position to another and then resigned. Is that not what happened in your recollection of her history in cabinet?
12:45 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
She was the Minister of Justice during that period, from December 18 until early January, when there was a cabinet shuffle. The cabinet shuffle was created by Mr. Brison's leaving cabinet and led to a number of moves, of which she was one. She remained a member of cabinet and she participated in the cabinet retreat in Sherbrooke that weekend, which was before The Globe and Mail story—
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Also, then, she was the one who proactively resigned as a cabinet minister, correct?
12:45 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
That would have been a couple of weeks later, I believe.
