Evidence of meeting #108 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was documents.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you for that, Mr. Brock.
Mr. Wernick, I'm going to ask that you just hang on for a second while this gets discussed.
Ms. Damoff, I saw your hand. Is this in relation to the motion that's been moved by Mr. Brock?
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
It is, Chair.
I still think we should get a copy of it before we start discussing it here.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Okay.
According to discussions with the clerk, there's no obligation for a verbal motion that's presented at committee to be distributed, but we are going to try to distribute that as soon as we can.
It's going to be distributed. Mr. Brock has read the motion into the record. We're going to get that to you as soon as we can, Ms. Damoff.
Is there any other discussion on the motion?
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Mr. Wernick does not work for the Government of Canada any longer, and has not for five years. I don't know how Mr. Brock can compel Mr. Wernick to provide anything to the committee when he's no longer working for the Government of Canada and has already said that he didn't take anything with him.
It just makes no sense to me whatsoever. He's a private citizen who has no.... He doesn't work for the government.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Ms. Damoff.
Mr. Brock was seeking unanimous consent for this motion.
Do we have unanimous consent to adopt the motion as presented by Mr. Brock?
Do you have anything to add, Mr. Villemure? If so, go ahead, you have the floor.
12:55 p.m.
Bloc
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
The clerk is working on it. That's why I told Mr. Brock to read the motion slowly. We can wait.
Mr. Brock, do you have something to say?
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Yes. Thank you, Chair.
This is in relation to Ms. Damoff's most recent intervention.
I get her point. I understand her point. I think the evidence we heard today was very clear, and that's why the motion references not only Mr. Wernick but the Privy Council Office itself.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you for that, Mr. Brock.
In relation to the motion—and maybe this addresses Ms. Damoff's concern—if the motion read “order Mr. Wernick and/or the Privy Council”, that might address the concern Ms. Damoff has.
I see your hand, Mr. Wernick.
Are you waving goodbye or are you trying to get my attention?
12:55 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
No, I'm always trying to be helpful to the committee.
I have no objection to producing what I have. I can tell the committee, if this would be useful, that there was an inquiry by the Commissioner of Lobbying during the same period—it started in March 2019 and concluded in November 2019, and I very helpfully have some of the documents from the Commissioner of Lobbying. There was a production of documents to her at the time.
I'm quite happy to send that to the clerk of the committee this afternoon.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
I appreciate that intervention, Mr. Wernick.
Ms. Damoff, your hand is still up. Is it in relation to the motion?
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
It is, Chair.
I'm looking at the time. We have three minutes left in our meeting. I'm wondering if we could resume this on Thursday, when everyone has the motion in front of them. Mr. Villemure does not have it in French. We really don't have time to discuss this properly and we may want to make amendments to it, but we really need to see a copy of it. I'm just wondering if we can resume this at our meeting on Thursday.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
The challenge with that, Mr. Damoff, is that we have the President of the Treasury Board coming in on Thursday for an hour, and then we have the former and current ethics commissioners coming in. The notice hasn't been posted yet, but they are coming. I've also been asked by Mr. Villemure to find a little bit of time in that meeting to discuss an important issue in relation to the social media study.
So I would like to dispose of this now. We do have a little extra time if we need it.
I know the clerk is working on the motion, but is there any other discussion on the motion?
Mr. Wernick has indicated that he has no problem with providing the committee with documents. If the Privy Council can provide documents to the committee as well, as requested in the motion, then I'm going to seek what Mr. Brock had initially indicated, and that is to have unanimous consent on this motion. If we don't, that's fine. If we do, then that moves things along.
Mr. Bains, go ahead, please.
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
I'm wondering if what Mr. Wernick is offering is sufficient for Mr. Brock to just withdraw it, and if he wants to discuss that—
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
We'll see once he offers that. He's made the offer.
Is that it, Mr. Bains?
12:55 p.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
To follow up on what Mr. Bains said, I thought that we could wait to see what Mr. Wernick sends us. If anything is missing, we can pass the motion. That would give us a chance to go about our business after 1 p.m.
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
I have a point of order, Chair.
There was no interpretation for Mr. Villemure's intervention.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
I'm sorry. I'm told that it works now.
Mr. Villemure, can you repeat your comment?
1 p.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Yes.
To follow up on what Mr. Bains said, I'm wondering whether we could wait until we receive Mr. Wernick's documents to see what they entail. If Mr. Brock isn't satisfied, we can then adopt his motion. That would help us finish the meeting on time, because we all have a rather busy schedule. I want to know what can be provided. If it's enough, all the better. If not, we can adopt the motion.
1 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
The motion has already been emailed to all members in both official languages. I suggest that you keep that email.
Mr. Brock, Mr. Wernick has already made the commitment to provide the documents he has. I know you're also seeking documents from the Privy Council in your motion. Based on what Mr. Villemure just said, would you be satisfied with the committee's receiving the documents from Mr. Wernick, assessing them and then dealing with the motion later on, or do you want to deal with the motion right now? That's where we're at right now based on what Mr. Villemure said.
1 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Well, I appreciate the commentary by my colleague Mr. Villemure, but the motion is very specific. It's for information that is still in the possession of Mr. Wernick that may or may not be relevant to our study and for information that is still within the possession and control of the Privy Council Office. We've heard evidence today, Mr. Chair, that prior to his departure, as the Clerk of the Privy Council, he made sure that all of his records were retained. He's not in a position to retrieve all of that documentation. Certainly the current Clerk and the staff at the PCO would be in a position to do so.
I'm not prepared to cede to Mr. Villemure's suggestion, because I think it would just prolong the delivery of information. I'd rather have everything that's in the control and possession of both entities, Mr. Wernick personally and the PCO, be received by this committee.