Evidence of meeting #108 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was documents.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Noon
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I don't know. It was about a week ago, I think.
Noon
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I'll have to check my emails. It was something like that, yes.
Noon
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Okay. Then, in the past week or so, what did you do to prepare for this meeting?
Noon
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
It was just me and Google search.
Noon
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
It was just me and my Google search. I haven't spoken to anybody about this appearance.
Noon
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
No, that wasn't the question. How did you prepare? Did you review, for instance, your two transcripts of previous testimony at the justice committee?
Noon
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I read the commissioner's report. I downloaded and read the two committee appearances, and I did a search for news articles.
Noon
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Okay, that's a good start.
Now, we know that the ultimate conclusion of the Dion report is that the Prime Minister directly, and through senior officials, used various means to exert influence over Jody Wilson-Raybould:
The authority of the Prime Minister and his office was used to circumvent, undermine and ultimately to attempt to discredit the decision of the director of public prosecutions as well as the authority of Ms. Wilson-Raybould as the Crown's chief law officer.
I'm going to quote from her book, Indian in the Cabinet. She says:
These efforts to pressure me—either directly or through Jessica—continued. Eventually, eleven officials from the PMO, the Privy Council Office, and the Office of the Minister of Finance made attempts. Over that four-month period there were approximately ten phone calls and ten meetings about SCN-Lavalin, culminating in a phone call I had with the clerk of the Privy Council on December 19, 2018.
Now, you didn't know that you were being audiotaped, did you?
12:05 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
No.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
I did review, with some great scrutiny, your previous transcripts and your evidence at the justice committee. You didn't take contemporaneous notes, unlike Jody Wilson-Raybould, of all your interactions with her, did you?
12:05 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
No.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
There was nothing you could use to refresh your memory in advance of your appearance at the justice committee five years ago.
12:05 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Do you mean between December and my appearance in February?
12:05 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
No.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Okay.
Now, in your opening statements, and I don't know if it was in your first or second testimony, you talked about a two-tier level of justice, but only in relation to the fact that SNC-Lavalin eventually did not receive the DPA and, ultimately, as we know, pled guilty to one count of fraud.
That's not the focus of the question. The focus is that, in my view, there is a perception among Canadians and numerous members—me included—that there was a political non-appetite by the RCMP to conduct a thorough investigation.
Prior to the commissioner's attendance not too long ago, they had close to four years of investigating this particular matter. Unlike the former Ethics Commissioner, who essentially interviewed 14 witnesses—you included—the RCMP interviewed four.
Now, I know you've already opined that you're not going to talk about police operations, but given that discrepancy, do you think there is a disconnect between in terms of how the Ethics Commissioner approached this investigation versus the RCMP?
12:05 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I think the Ethics Commissioner's mandate, given by Parliament, is about violations of the Conflict of Interest Act, and the RCMP would be looking at a threshold of potential violations of criminal law, so they would be looking at it with a different lens.
It is entirely up to the RCMP whether they pursue preliminary investigations, fact-finding, final investigations or move on to laying of charges. That's their job.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
However, the evidence is still the same. The RCMP confirmed that they relied upon the evidence received from the Ethics Commissioner. He was ultimately stymied and was upset that he was unable to complete a fulsome report due to the actions of the Prime Minister, which is exactly the same rationale the RCMP had used in closing their investigation, because they could not obtain further information from the Prime Minister.
Were you aware of that?
12:05 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I'm aware that that's what the commissioner wrote in his report—yes, of course.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
There are two elements to any criminal charge. The RCMP was investigating obstruction of justice and intimidation of a justice participant.
There are two elements: There has to be an act and there has to be a mental element—an intention to complete the act—known as actus reus and mens rea. I don't want to get into legal complexities, but that is the ultimate test.
Did you review the testimony of the RCMP commissioner from a few weeks ago?
12:05 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
No.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
All right.
Now, I'm going back to some of the evidence that—
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
