Information & Ethics Committee on March 21st, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Sorbara and Mr. Rochon.

We're now ready for the next round of questions. Mr. Villemure will have the floor for two and a half minutes. Mr. Green will then have the floor for two and a half minutes, followed by Mr. Brock and Mr. Bains for five minutes. We can finish the hour on time.

Mr. Villemure, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Anand, you said earlier that the Treasury Board played an oversight role, but that you deferred to the minister of each organization to implement the measures. I'm sorry to hear that this type of delegating would mean summoning all the ministers. I don't think that anyone wants to do that.

Let me recap. Something happened, but a privacy impact assessment wasn't carried out. The directive was misunderstood, so no complaint was filed with the Privacy Commissioner of Canada. No complaint meant no investigation, and no investigation meant no consequences.

If Radio‑Canada hadn't published an article on this topic, we wouldn't be sitting here at the committee today. This situation worries me. If the Privacy Impact Assessment requirement had been included in the Privacy Act, this whole situation could have been avoided. I have a direct question for you. Will you include the Privacy Impact Assessment in the act? Please don't repeat the answer that we heard earlier.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

As I said, I spoke with Minister Virani. He's currently looking at the next steps for Bill C‑27. At the same time, I'll be issuing an amended version of our directive on privacy impact assessment.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

I understand.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

We're currently studying and addressing this issue.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Okay.

You'll be issuing a new directive on privacy impact assessment. Will there be a legislative change? Do you plan to make a legislative change? Are you considering this possibility? Could this happen?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

This issue doesn't fall within my department's purview. The decision lies not with me, but with Minister Virani. I often speak to him about this issue, as I did this week. I'll tell him about the possibility of including this component in the bill, and the necessary considerations regarding this issue.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Should we ask Minister Virani to come and explain this to the committee?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Mr. Virani is responsible for our position on this bill. He's currently studying the bill. In terms of inviting him here, that's the committee's decision, not mine.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Anand.

I would like to invite him. We'll do everything to ensure that he comes to speak to us.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Villemure.

Mr. Green, you have two and a half minutes.

Go ahead, please.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Ms. Anand, your mandate as the President of the Treasury Board is to provide oversight on administrative leadership and regulatory oversight. I'm concerned that you just won't come forward and at least admit there's a huge gap here. That's the purpose of this study. We have 13 departments and countless others, probably 120-plus others, that are unknown in terms of whether or not they're effectively using privacy impact assessments.

I want to know a little bit about your leadership, Ms. Anand. What action did you take upon learning from the media reports that 13 departments and agencies had not completed privacy impact assessments for the use of personal data extraction tools? What did you do?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I immediately spoke with my team and was in touch with the department, which is how ministers are briefed, to ensure that we are taking all actions necessary. You have heard that my department then reached out to all of the departments to hear exactly what they were doing. Now, nine out of 13 of those departments have implemented PIAs, and we seek to ensure that compliance with privacy requirements occurs at all times.

Yes, there is a problem, and that's why the directive is being updated.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Ms. Anand, rather than reading your statement, what about the other agencies? Have you reached out to them? What have you done? You're the effective management board for the government. You're supposed to be providing oversight. You're supposed to establish policies and common standards for administrative personnel. This is your role. How are you fulfilling it, and what assurances do we have that the other agencies and departments are in compliance?

These are only 13 that got caught. We don't know about the other ones.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I am fulfilling my role, and I will assure you that we are in touch with departments regarding their compliance with the Privacy Act and other Treasury Board policies.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I'll ask a direct—

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

That's part of why I announced the horizontal audit yesterday.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I'll ask a direct question.

Have you, to this date, been in direct contact with all departments and agencies regarding privacy impact assessments, particularly as it relates to the story that broke on the 13 departments? Have you directly reached out to everybody?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

With our team, through annual reporting, Dominic, could you fulfill that...?

[Dominic Rochon]

I will, very quickly, because I'm respectful of your time.

Departments and agencies are responsible for providing personal information banks for all their programs and activities.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Respectfully, sir, the question was to the president. The president did not answer it. It was a simple.... Take responsibility as the president.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Mr. Green—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Did you reach out to everybody, Anita, yes or no? It's that simple. If it's no, then it's no.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Okay. Minister, answer quickly.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Yes, the department has been in contact. Thank you for the question.