Information & Ethics Committee on April 16th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Green and Madam Tremblay.

We are in our last five-minute round. We're going to start with Mr. Kurek.

Go ahead, Mr. Kurek, for five minutes.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you very much, Chair, and thank you to the commissioner.

Congratulations, officially and on the record, for your permanent appointment. The term is seven years, I believe, and certainly that continuity is important.

I find the Liberals' line of questioning interesting. It seems like they're auditioning to be in the official opposition, when it's their record that.... It's their Prime Minister who was twice convicted of breaching the Conflict of Interest Act. It's cabinet ministers and members of their party who have broken and been found guilty of breaking the act.

The Liberals' top pollster, Don Guy, lobbies the government. We're not talking about somebody who has lobbied the opposition, but their top pollster, the one who's giving them the information, lobbies the government for dollars. I can tell you that's certainly concerning to me.

Former Liberal cabinet minister Navdeep Bains was responsible for regulating telcos and then got a VP position at one of the highly regulated national telcos in our country. I can tell you that it is quite something to hear these Liberals equivocate on such matters.

Commissioner, we heard pretty specifically from your predecessor that training was an issue. You outlined a few of the efforts you're undertaking to make sure that resources are available to MPs and others who have responsibilities under the act. I want to ask what the response is to those training materials.

A follow-up question is in the context of you and your team's availability to answer questions, to speak with those who have obligations under the act and to answer questions to make sure that those who have obligations can understand exactly what those are.

First, can you outline a bit more about what training opportunities you're providing? I believe the former commissioner said that there should be a mandatory retraining course, so I want to ask you about some of those resources. Then could you outline what the response is? Could you provide information about the number of MPs and others who are subject to the act who are reaching out to your office? If you could, explain, both to this committee and to Canadians watching, the resources that are available to make sure that those who have obligations have the information required to make sure they don't break the rules.

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

Melanie, can you answer this question?

[Melanie Rushworth]

Absolutely.

A number of different pieces of training are available through the office. As I explained, we've just recently finished the online training for MPs, and I've requested funding to produce a similar type of product under the act in the next fiscal year.

One of the other things we've recently completed is a survey of public office holders, similar to the one we did a couple of years ago with members of Parliament, asking them about the types of services at the office. From that, we know they are happy with the training they are receiving, but they would like to see some more topic-specific training, and we will continue to work on that.

Similarly, on making sure we're responsive to the needs of the public—you mentioned people coming to us for information—in the course of a year, my team responds to in excess of 3,000 queries that come in from members of the public or the media. We respond to all of those to let them understand what our role is and how we can help them.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

You mentioned some numbers there. I know all MPs have to do the yearly filings and whatnot. When it comes to queries, do you have any numbers for how often an MP or others who might have obligations under the act reach out to your office to request information and ask about obligations to make sure they have the information required so that they don't break the rules?

[Melanie Rushworth]

Absolutely. Our yearly average is just in excess of 3,000 requests for advice, which come into that team. Last year, they were about 15% higher than the yearly average. I can also tell you that their questions mainly pertain to material change, general obligations and post-employment, which applies under the act but not under the code. In that regard, we are able to meet our service standards.

Other members of this committee were asking about our ability to meet the demand. We are able to meet our service standards. When a member of Parliament or a public office holder calls, they are responded to within three days.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

I appreciate that.

My takeaway from this is that there is no excuse for anybody who has obligations under the code. They can get the information from you to make sure they don't break the rules. It's unfortunate that sometimes it seems like we have a government that cares less about being willing to follow the rules.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Kurek.

Ms. Lapointe, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Commissioner.

I think it's important for members of the public who are listening in today to talk about the important role that your office plays. As the commissioner, you administer the Conflict of Interest Act and the conflict of interest code. You do that with the aim of ensuring that public office holders and members do not use their positions to further their financial or private interests.

I think the other very important thing for viewers to know is that the Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner is independent and non-partisan. I think that's very important.

Can you tell us how we can reassure Canadians that your office is free from political interference?

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

First of all, there is the appointment process. People have to apply. Then they have an interview. The interview process involves people from the government and a couple of people from the private sector. In my case, it was a retired judge who sat on the panel.

Then whoever is selected is put forward to all the parties of the House and they have to vote. It is what happened in my case, and it was a unanimous vote. Effectively, nobody saw any problems.

Now, it's obviously the conduct that will tell.... If I or anybody occupying the position were to be in any way partisan, the whole issue would be lost. The raison d'être is that we make decisions on the basis of objective fact, not on our political or philosophical leanings.

The appointment requires that you be a former judge or you have formerly run an independent organization. I've done both, so hopefully that will give people some assurance that we will act non-partisan.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

I was interested in one of the responses you gave to a question of my colleague Mr. Villemure. You talked about how today there's a lack of confidence in ethics and how important it is to reinforce that. Can you tell me how your office does that reinforcement?

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

Well, there's no magic bullet. It's basically education and using every medium possible to get the message out. Then, certainly, there's having investigations, calling it as it is and making sure that where there is a conflict, it is highlighted and explained. Hopefully, that will serve as a deterrent for others.

Melanie is my director of communications. She spends a lot of time getting the message out that there is a code and they have to abide by it.

Melanie, why don't you tell them about some of the activities you're doing?

[Melanie Rushworth]

In addition to responding to public queries that come into our inbox or by telephone, we pay attention to some of the statistics in the office to understand the types of questions that public office holders or members of Parliament are asking us. We try to make sure we think this through when we're communicating externally, answering media queries and so on to try to weave those topics of interest into our responses. Then, obviously, when we are asked for presentations, we deliver those also.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Commissioner, what do you consider to be the greatest challenge facing your office today?

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

It's a good question. It's probably understanding the digital challenge and what it represents to the whole of government, including my office, and how to use it positively. We all see how it's being used—quite often negatively—but it can also be a very useful tool. I don't think we have really mastered it.

To what extent can we use social media in order to get our message out better, to educate people and to instill confidence? I think we are all struggling with the digital challenge in every sphere of our lives, mine included.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

I think it's important that as members we're accountable, and I suggest that the same applies to your office. How do you measure your work—I'm not talking only about process outcomes, but more specifically about outcome measures—to demonstrate the effectiveness of your work for Canadians?

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

It's rather difficult because what we do is all confidential. I can only give you the number of people who have consulted us, who have been invited and so on.

To the extent that people get in contact with my office and ask a question or want advice on something, we give it. If they don't follow it after we say, “You have to do this and this; otherwise you're in conflict”, there is a breach and obviously we start an investigation. There's never anything of that sort, so essentially, to the extent that people consult with us, we give advice and they follow it.

The best thing is to try to get people to come forward and consult, and as Melanie showed, the numbers go up each year, which somewhat supports the fact that we are actually effective. Given that all we do is, for logical reasons, confidential and we cannot share it with you, it's very hard to measure outcomes in any other way.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Lapointe.

Commissioner, on behalf of the committee, thank you for appearing before us today.

I would also like to thank Ms. Tremblay and Ms. Rushworth for their participation.

We will suspend the meeting for a few minutes to allow Ms. Nancy Bélanger to settle in.

The meeting is suspended.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Good afternoon, everyone. We're going to continue with the meeting today.

For our second hour, we're very pleased to have Madam Nancy Bélanger here. She's the Commissioner of Lobbying.

Ms. Bélanger, welcome to the committee. You have up to five minutes to address the committee. Please start.

[Nancy Bélanger, Commissioner of Lobbying of Canada]

Good morning, Mr. Chair and members of the committee.

Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today to discuss the Main Estimates 2024-25. I am very pleased to meet a number of you for the first time and to speak to you about the work carried out by my office.

The Lobbying Act requires that I maintain the Registry of Lobbyists, that I expand awareness and understanding of the lobbying regimes through education and that I conduct compliance work that supports respect of the act and the Lobbyists' Code of Conduct.

Let me report on some of the highlights from the 2023-24 fiscal year: Over 7,000 lobbyists were registered with over 5,700 active registrations at any given time. Monthly reports of oral and arranged communications with designated public office holders attained a record high, with over 34,000 communications reported, according to statistics released this morning. We reached about 4,800 stakeholders through approximately 123 outreach presentations. In carrying out our advisory role, we responded to over 400 requests to ensure compliance with the new Lobbyists’ Code of Conduct. In addition to 37 compliance files carried over at the end of fiscal year 2022-23, we initiated 16 preliminary assessments and determined that no further action was required in 14 cases. I opened two investigations, made two referrals to the RCMP and tabled one investigation report to Parliament.

Priorities for the current fiscal year include the continuous improvement of the Registry of Lobbyists. Recently, we updated the registry so that subject matters and their corresponding details are linked to each other in registrations, thereby improving transparency. This fall, another update will require lobbyists to identify the details discussed in association with the subject matter when submitting monthly communication reports.

We continue to develop ways to expand awareness and understanding of the Lobbying Act and the Lobbyists’ Code of Conduct. In particular, we are updating our interpretation materials with respect to the application and enforcement of the act and will issue advisory notes in respect of the code.

In addition, we're advancing on 34 ongoing compliance files. The Lobbying Act requires that an investigation be conducted when I have reason to believe that one is necessary to ensure compliance. When I have reasonable grounds to believe an offence under the act has occurred, I'm required to suspend my investigation and refer the matter to the appropriate police authority. In most cases, it's the RCMP. There are currently four files suspended and with the RCMP.

With respect to investigations conducted under the code, I'm required, once I conclude an investigation, to report to Parliament on my findings. As you are aware, the act imposes strict confidentiality requirements, and I cannot, therefore, discuss the specifics of any compliance files.

The office delivers on its mandate and fulfils its corporate functions, including by meeting extensive government-wide reporting requirements through the invaluable work of a small number of employees who now average 31 staff positions. We are continuing our staffing actions to ensure a full complement of 37 FTEs by the end of the year.

The total annual budget for this current fiscal year is approximately $5.9 million. Roughly $4.6 million goes to salaries and benefits, leaving an operating budget of $1.3 million. About $700,000 of that operating budget is spent on obtaining services from other government institutions, including services related to HR, finance, procurement and information technology.

Before I conclude, I must reiterate that the Lobbying Act requires this committee to undertake a review of the act every five years. The last review occurred in 2012. Two opportunities to improve the lobbying regime were missed in 2017 and 2022. I will continue to identify and pursue improvements that could enhance the transparency, fairness, clarity and efficiency of the federal lobbying regime, but most of the regime's identified deficiencies can only be addressed through legislative amendments. I would urge this committee to avoid any further delays, prioritize initiating a review of the act and put forward legislative amendments.

I'd like to conclude by thanking each and every employee of the office. They are actively engaged in and contribute to an exceptional work environment. I'm extremely grateful for their dedication, professionalism and excellence in delivering on our mandate.

Mr. Chair and committee members, thank you. I welcome your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Ms. Bélanger.

We are going to start with our first six-minute round.

Mr. Barrett, you have six minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Commissioner, if a company says that a significant part of what it does is contacting and communicating with government, should it be registered to lobby?

[Nancy Bélanger]

If it meets the threshold of “significant part of the duties”, absolutely.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

I'll circle back to that.

If the contact and communication includes pitching products and services and providing hospitality to government officials, should it be required to register to lobby?

[Nancy Bélanger]

Procurement is only a requirement if it's a consultant lobbying, not if it's an organization or corporation. It would depend.