Evidence of meeting #113 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site.) The winning word was office.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Caroline Maynard  Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 113 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics.

Pursuant to Standing Order 81(4), the committee is resuming consideration of the main estimates 2024-25: vote 1 under the Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying; vote 1 under the Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner; vote 1 under the Office of the Senate Ethics Officer; votes 1 and 5 under Offices of the Information and Privacy Commissioners of Canada, referred to the committee on Thursday, February 29, 2024.

Today’s meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members may attend in person and remotely using the Zoom application.

I want to remind all members not to put the earpieces near the microphones, because it causes feedback.

Today is the four-year anniversary of the Nova Scotia shooting. Before I begin, in honour of the victims and the people of Nova Scotia, I'd like to ask the committee if we can start with a moment of silence.

[A moment of silence observed]

I know that this is going to be another difficult day for the people of Nova Scotia. Our thoughts are with them today.

Now I'd like to welcome our witness from the Office of the Information Commissioner. It's always a pleasure to have Caroline Maynard here, who is the commissioner.

Ms. Maynard, welcome to committee.

You have up to five minutes to address the members.

You can start now, please. Thank you.

11:05 a.m.

Caroline Maynard Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Good morning.

Thank you for inviting me to answer your questions on the Main Estimates for the Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada.

Since taking office as Information Commissioner, I’ve always welcomed the opportunities made available to me to come and speak to you about the office’s activities and the state of access to information as a whole.

For the fiscal year 2023-24, I am pleased to report that my office successfully resolved more complaints than it registered. This helped us make real progress against our backlog of complaints.

Earlier this year, I requested additional temporary funding through the Minister of Justice in order to eliminate my backlog completely. Unfortunately, this request was not granted.

Furthermore, I now find myself in a particularly difficult situation. As we begin a new financial year, I’m facing a structural deficit.

To provide some context, the office received permanent additional funding for 27 investigators in December 2020. Because of the way the Treasury Board Secretariat calculated funding last year for new collective agreements, I did not receive funds to cover salary increases for 27 investigators.

This is a 2% to 3% budget cut, which represents a cut of about $375,000 per year.

For a small organization like mine, this is a significant strain. Every employee plays a vital role, and losing even a few can deeply impact my office's ability to fulfill my mandate. This is one more reason that I will continue to advocate for an independent funding model for my office, as recommended by this committee.

Following last week's budget announcement, I am also concerned that the units responsible for access to information across the federal government could find themselves short of staff due to attrition, if departing employees are not replaced.

Last September, in op-eds published in The Globe and Mail and Le Devoir, I cautioned that leaders must keep in mind that access to information is not a service but a quasi-constitutional right and a legal obligation, and it must be treated as such.

In other words, access units must be afforded the resources that enable them to fulfill what is, I repeat, a legal obligation.

Over the last year, I saw far too many cases where institutions ignored their access to information obligations. In fact, I am now in a situation that wasn’t supposed to happen. At least, that’s what I was told during the 2019 legislative reform.

Before order-making powers were added to the Access to Information Act, I had suggested changes to ensure compliance. I was told that these amendments were unnecessary, as my orders would be legally binding. Institutions had to comply with the orders or challenge them in court. I quickly realized that this was wishful thinking.

Indeed, rather than choosing between complying with my orders or challenging them in court, some institutions are choosing to do neither. By ignoring my orders, these institutions are, in effect, breaking the law.

In real terms, this means that Canadians must wait longer before receiving the information they requested and are entitled to.

Upholding the act is at the heart of my mandate. That is why I was forced to launch my own legal proceedings against institutions that chose to ignore my orders.

So, to date, I’ve initiated four mandamus procedures before the Federal Court in order to ensure that my orders are upheld and a response is finally sent to the applicant.

This expends my resources and those of the institutions who are deploying their own legal services to deal with these cases.

How much is this intransigence costing institutions? I can only guess.

This is not supposed to be necessary, and I am sure that Canadians would agree that it is not something we can afford in the current economic context.

It turns out that a culture of secrecy does not only impact our democracy; it comes at a considerable financial cost.

Thank you.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

We thank you for your statement, Ms. Maynard.

We welcome Mr. Martel and Mr. Fortin, who are our guests today.

We will now start the first round of questions.

Mr. Barrett, please go ahead.

You have the floor for six minutes.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, Commissioner.

You're currently investigating ArriveCAN. Is that correct?

11:10 a.m.

Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

We've heard that Minh Doan, who is the chief information officer of Canada under this Liberal government, destroyed or attempted to destroy over 1,700 emails relating to ArriveCAN. Is that what you are specifically investigating?

11:10 a.m.

Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Caroline Maynard

I cannot talk about the complaints or the investigation I'm doing, but it is part of the overall investigation, given that I started my own investigation.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

What was the trigger for your investigation?

11:10 a.m.

Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Caroline Maynard

It was the number of complaints we received, the allegations we saw and the testimonies that were sufficiently serious that I decided to initiate my own investigation into the affairs of CBSA and ArriveCAN.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Are you able to tell us if you've interviewed Minh Doan?

11:10 a.m.

Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Is that no, you're not able to tell us?

11:10 a.m.

Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

He has not co-operated with parliamentary committees investigating his role in arrive scam. Are you able to compel testimony from Mr. Doan or others whom you wish to interview?

11:10 a.m.

Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Caroline Maynard

Yes, the act allows me to.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Which act is that?

11:10 a.m.

Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Caroline Maynard

It's the Access to Information Act.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Are you able to share with us if you've been able to obtain copies of the up to 1,700 emails that are said to have been deleted?

11:10 a.m.

Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Caroline Maynard

I cannot confirm that.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Are you able to tell us if you have the power to order the production of those emails or any other documents that are relevant to your investigation?

11:10 a.m.

Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Caroline Maynard

Yes. Under the act, I have the power to subpoena documents and subpoena witnesses.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

What are the penalties for obstructing an investigation if someone refuses to provide documents or refuses to co-operate?

11:10 a.m.

Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Caroline Maynard

There's no penalty.

The only thing I can do under the act, if I find that somebody is intentionally refusing to co-operate or refusing to provide documents, and if it looks like it's an intent to not provide access to Canadians to some documents, I can refer that to the Attorney General. As soon as it becomes more in the grey zone of criminal intent, I cannot investigate those allegations.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Are you able to say what the remedy is that the Attorney General would be able to offer?

11:10 a.m.

Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada