Information & Ethics Committee on April 30th, 2024

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thanks very much.

I hope our friends from MediaSmarts can provide that.

I have another question I'd like to ask.

Quite often, one challenge is that the conversation around information, misinformation and disinformation becomes inherently political, because it's to somebody's political advantage to simply accuse their opponents of lying. Something I hear a lot about, being a rural member of Parliament, is the firearms debate. I am not asking you to take a position on that, but that's certainly somewhere I've heard a ton of misinformation, including from political parties in this place.

How do we make sure we can provide media literacy to combat misinformation and disinformation in a way that acknowledges that there is also a valid policy and political debate to be had in the midst of what can sometimes be tough conversations?

[Matthew Johnson]

One fundamental aspect of digital media literacy is understanding the difference between fact and opinion. It's one of the things we teach, starting in elementary school, because it's fundamental to having any kind of reasoned debate, as you say.

Beyond dividing those two, beyond dividing whether we're discussing an opinion or facts, media literacy helps us to identify which sources of information are reliable, so it is only when we can divide opinion and fact, and when all sides of an issue are drawing from reliable, verifiable sources of information, that we can have that debate.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

I'm pretty sure I'm close to being out of time, but would it be helpful, for example, if in the next recommendations there were something on these sites, something that simply said, “Look, here is the algorithm,” some algorithmic transparency that would be beneficial, that at least that information is then put forward? Maybe just a yes or no answer from both our witnesses: Is that something that might be helpful?

[Matthew Johnson]

The short answer is it's complicated, but yes, there are ways of doing it and it would be valuable.

[Patrick White]

Yes, and transparency—total transparency—is key to fighting opacity.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Kurek.

Mr. Bains, go ahead for two and a half minutes.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for joining us today.

I'll begin with Ms. Hill from MediaSmarts. How far is it reaching? I have teenage kids, so I'm very interested in this topic. I also am a university lecturer, and I actually spent a full three-hour course on how to find sources, the correct sources; on how, for things like Wikipedia, people think it's real and everything on there is believable; on how far you need to actually look deeper into, say, any magazine or online page; and on how much actual research you yourself have to do to get to what a real, credible source is. I want to see how far you're reaching across Canada, for what age levels and maybe whether you're actually describing these things in that manner. This is, of course, a K-to-12 system versus university level, where there's better comprehension.

[Kathryn Hill]

Our reach is good, but it could be much better. We're a small organization with only 12 staff. We're project-funded, so we exist and survive by responding to calls for proposals for funding related to digital media literacy.

That being said, our worst nightmare is that we create these phenomenal resources that sit on a website that no one sees, so we work very hard to build our audience. We know that our educational resources, for example, get over a million views a year. A lot of our projects or research, when we're promoting it, will get tens of millions of views, perhaps—

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

We have just a bit of time. I know that educators are the focus. You're telling them about your program. Therefore, are they subscribing to it? How are they receiving it, and how much further is the program going?

[Kathryn Hill]

We work with all of the departments of education in all the provinces and territories. We maintain an educational contact list that has over 1,500 educators at all levels of all ministries, and we promote our resources to them. We know we have thousands of teachers who are accessing our resources. Everything's available for free. Everything is tied distinctly, for every province and territory, to every curriculum. You can be a grade 8 math teacher in Newfoundland and find a lesson related to media literacy, or a grade 3 English teacher in the Yukon.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Then, what are the results—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Bains, that's two and a half minutes.

Thank you, Ms. Hill.

Mr. Villemure, go ahead for two and a half minutes.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. White, we're here at the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics. In our report, we will be making recommendations about disinformation and misinformation. I would like to give you the two minutes of speaking time I have left so that you can tell us what you would recommend to mitigate the negative effects or consequences of disinformation and misinformation.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

On a point of order—my apologies—I really enjoy Mr. Villemure's interventions. Unfortunately, the translation's not being broadcast through the English channel.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Okay. We'll attempt to work on that. I've stopped the clock.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I can hear the interpretation now.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Mr. Villemure, please start over. You have two and a half minutes.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. White, our committee, the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics, has to make recommendations on the negative consequences of disinformation and misinformation. I would like to give you the rest of my speaking time so that you can tell us what recommendations you feel we should be putting in our report.

[Patrick White]

As I said earlier, it's very important to quickly adopt legislation to prohibit video and audio deep fakes, whether pornographic or otherwise.

Canada needs better oversight of artificial intelligence, and of generative AI in particular, which uses chatbots. The social networks need to be totally transparent about their algorithms and the current absence of clarity has to end.

Another of the four major objectives for the short, medium and even long term would be to introduce civic education on media, information and disinformation in Canada's elementary and secondary schools, colleges, and universities. And why not make it available to seniors, who only learned about computers later in life? I learned about them with Apple in 1984, and I didn't have a cellphone until 2002 or 2003.

To conclude, I would add that financial support for the news media must continue if our information ecosystem is to survive.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Could the European Union standards be considered a good starting point for drawing up this sort of legislation?

[Patrick White]

The European Union, which represents some 30 countries, is certainly very influential. We could indeed build on its approach, and also on France's statute prohibiting false news during election campaigns.

We don't want to expand censorship in Canada, of course—quite the opposite—but we could draw inspiration from the French statute to try and combat disinformation, particularly during federal, provincial and municipal election campaigns.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Hill, could you briefly tell us what you would recommend to mitigate the negative impact of disinformation and misinformation? If you don't have time to finish, you could send us your comments in writing after the meeting.

[Kathryn Hill]

They would be almost identical to Mr. White's.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Okay.

[Kathryn Hill]

Obviously, we're terribly biased, but we believe 100% in education, and the evidence supports it. We need to have education for our citizens—our children, youth, adults and seniors. Over the past five years we've learned, with the support of evidence, that it really works and does make a difference. We just need to reach everyone and provide them with that opportunity.