Information & Ethics Committee on April 30th, 2024

[Jakub Kalenský]

I'm not aware of any inauthentic campaigns in this regard, but it might just be that I haven't paid enough attention.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

There's an article you're quoted in, in Politico in Europe, which says that an organization called the Alliance for Securing Democracy compiled stats that in the seven weeks after the conflict began, “Russian Facebook accounts have posted 44,000 times compared to a mere 14,000 posts in the seven weeks before the conflict began”, thus a tripling of their social media posts. This “activity on Facebook was shared almost 400,000 times collectively, a fourfold increase compared to posts published before the conflict.”

I've seen a number of different studies about social media—and I think we'll have a witness on Thursday who will be speaking to this—that talk about how Russia is trying to foment strife in North America, in Canada and the United States, turning us against each other to divert attention away from its own misdeeds in Ukraine.

I think I'm almost finished, so I'll just leave it with you if you have any last comments, Mr. Kalenský.

[Jakub Kalenský]

I agree with you that they would be doing that, but sometimes they are just following the news cycle. When we had the COVID pandemic, they were focusing on COVID. Now, because media focuses so much on what's happening in the Middle East, they use this, but it might be something different in a few weeks again.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

You still have a minute, Mr. Housefather.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I didn't realize I had another minute.

Let me turn my attention to you, Mr. Bridgman. You haven't had any questions yet. Do you have anything to say about my questions on Russia and what Russia is doing to foment disinformation in North America?

[Aengus Bridgman]

Yes. Thank you for the opportunity.

Very quickly, this is absolutely a phenomenon. Russia, Iran, and other entities do try to manipulate the information ecosystem in a country like Canada. That is a phenomenon. We need to understand it and we need to better study it. Some of the work I do is really about trying to link entities from foreign countries and their penetration of the Canadian information ecosystem. I can certainly talk more about that.

One thing that's really key here and that I really want to stress is that when we're talking about misinformation and disinformation, especially as it relates to the work of parliamentarians, a lot of this is domestic. It's not just the international that is driving polarization, driving toxicity and driving these things in our debate. They attempt to exacerbate it. As Mr. Kalenský was saying, they use opportunities afforded by our political environment—events and moments in Canada or in the United States or in other countries when there's political tension—and try to amplify that.

There needs to be a concerted effort collectively to say, okay, here's a moment when they're trying to polarize us. We need to take a step back. We're polarized on this issue. There's a problem here and we're going to have a heated debate.

It's not just because of them—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I'm sorry, sir. That one minute of grace turned into one minute of overtime.

Ms. Gaudreau, welcome to the committee. You have six minutes.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, dear witnesses. This study is a very important one for our democracy.

I'm trying to acquire a better understanding of the situation. We know that misinformation and disinformation can have consequences. We've heard two different standpoints, but I'll begin by asking where these activities coming from, why they exist, and what their causes are.

I'd like the two online witnesses to answer my question.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I'll start with you, Mr. Bridgman. Go ahead, sir.

[Aengus Bridgman]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The question here is about where it comes from. In regular political discourse, there is—

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

You can speak to me in French.

[Aengus Bridgman]

I know, but honestly, it would be better for everyone if I could answer in English.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

I'm the one who asked the question and I asked it in French, so I would prefer an answer in French, please.

[Aengus Bridgman]

Okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Ms. Gaudreau, if Mr. Bridgman is unable to answer in French, he can answer in English.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Yes, of course.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I've stopped the clock, Mr. Bridgman.

I'd like you to give your answer in whatever language you feel comfortable with, sir. Go ahead, please.

[Aengus Bridgman]

Out of respect, I'll try to answer in French.

You're asking about the sources of misinformation and disinformation. In politics, there is always debate over facts. The difference between misinformation and disinformation is not always neat and clear. Sometimes, as Mr. Chiu was saying, it's obvious that there is disinformation, but there are genuine debates over most of the facts, and it's the role of politicians, among others, to navigate through it all, to listen, to speak out and to find the truth together, or to just accept that they have differing opinions. That's politics. So there is always misinformation and disinformation, and I would say it's pervasive throughout the system—

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

I'm going to interrupt you because I don't have a lot of time and I'd like to discuss the results of your survey, which give me cause for concern.

You said that there are always going to be threats, but that they are not existential threats that could change the outcome of an election. What does that amount to? When I read the reports, I didn't get the impression that there was any impact at all.

Are you familiar with the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association's report, which mentions serious repercussions for democracy? I'd like to hear what you have to say about that and about the surveys you conducted in connection with the last two elections.

[Aengus Bridgman]

In 2021, we did a survey based on a representative sample of the population, and in particular our Chinese-Canadian population. We monitored changes of opinion among Canadians during the election. If there had been a highly effective disinformation campaign, by which I mean that it really changed people's opinions, we would have seen it in the survey results. But we didn't see much of a change. That doesn't mean that no individual ridings were affected and there was evidence that some were. But we didn't see an opinion change at the national level. It's therefore very important to acknowledge that it exists, but the longer-term effects can be pernicious—

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

What do you mean by “longer term”? It's important.

[Aengus Bridgman]

To some extent, the studies showed that one of the most serious consequences of misinformation is a loss of confidence in politics. Over the past five years, there has been a change in people's confidence in the media, politicians and journalists. This significant change of approximately 10 points in the surveys is mainly the outcome of disinformation and misinformation.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Mr. Chair, I'd like to ask Mr. Bridgman to provide us with the survey findings and the repercussions of the changes we've been discussing. It would be very important and helpful to the committee.

I'd like to discuss the risks. I haven't heard all of Mr. Kalenský's information about countering measures, detection, documentation, awareness-raising for the many stakeholders, and fixing weaknesses. I'd like to ask him to finish his comments on the four best practices.

[Jakub Kalenský]

Thank you very much.

Before I talk about the fourth line, let me briefly touch upon the first question you had. I'm sorry that I won't manage to give my reply in French. My French is horrible, despite my having spent three years in Brussels.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Sir, you have 45 seconds, so you're going to have to go quickly, please.