Information & Ethics Committee on Oct. 10th, 2024

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

I'd be interested to know how you verified that it was rare if you didn't go back and review all of the other instances of coverage, like I said.

I'd like you to tell us now, though, do you think it's appropriate for other media organizations to have criticized Conservatives for calling out this disinformation when you yourself admitted that you were wrong? Do you think it is appropriate for other media outlets to have criticized this disinformation having been called out?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Give a quick response, please, Mr. Gray.

[Richard Gray]

It's not for me to suggest how other media outlets operate. My job is to manage CTV News.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Barrett.

Thank you, Mr. Gray.

I'm going to go to Ms. Shanahan now for six minutes.

Go ahead, please.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witness for appearing before us today.

Mr. Gray, I'd like to ask you what steps CTV news journalists and newsroom managers typically take to ensure that aired reports meet the current journalistic and ethical standards? I'm looking for a rather fulsome response because we want to understand. I don't know if anyone here has worked in a newsroom. I certainly have not. We want to understand what the process is from the beginning to the aired product.

[Richard Gray]

I think the first and most important component part of my answer to your question is that we have very rigorous and steadfast policies that spell out the expectations as to how our journalism is conducted.

In addition to these policies, we adhere to the RTDNA Canada and Canadian Association of Broadcasters respective codes of ethics. What occurs in the newsroom on a daily basis is that all of our team members are expected to follow those policies to the absolute letter.

With respect to particular news stories, they are all vetted by a senior member of the team prior to their going to air to ensure they are factually correct and that there are no legal issues with respect to the content.

What specifically happened in this case on September 22 was that those policies and codes of ethics were violated by two individuals at CTV National News. In one case, a reporter altered a script after it had been approved by the producer, significantly changing the meaning and the intent of a particular clip to better suit the requirements of the story they were attempting to tell. In the second case, an editor spliced fragments of two segments of a statement together, creating a clip that hadn't actually been spoken in order to cover a technical issue with the original recording.

In my 33 years working in television news, I cannot recall anything similar to this ever happening before.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

How does it happen? How do the newsroom managers...? I take it that it would be the senior person who would be responsible for making sure this didn't happen, so there are questions there as to where they were. How do they ensure that they are broadcasting accurately and that it reflects the facts without any tampering? Do you have some kind of technical way of checking that?

Of course, we're living in an era today where deepfakes, video alteration and so on are almost child's play.

[Richard Gray]

We have an elaborate process of verifying all facts. It's multi-layered. However, even with that check and balance, it would have been impossible, in this case, to catch this error, because, as I said a few moments ago, what happened here is that the script that was produced and approved by the producer was later altered, and altered in two ways, by the reporter and by the editor.

Again, this is something I have never seen and I have no experience dealing with in my 33 years in television news.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

For a long time now, Mr. Gray, the Conservative Party leader has attacked mainstream media and journalists with the intention to mislead and to make Canadians believe that the news networks they have trusted before are no longer trustworthy.

Can you comment on the dangers that this presents to the state of Canada's information ecosystem and our democracy?

[Richard Gray]

It's critically important that there be absolute trust in all of our institutions, both in the media and our government. There has been a general erosion in that trust over the last number of years. I think—

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Would you say that is due to public statements by political leaders, such as Pierre Poilievre?

[Richard Gray]

I wouldn't necessarily say that. I think it is the result of a number of things. Probably the biggest one is that there has been a shift in our society where there is a more prevailing attitude that “if you're not with us, you're against us.”

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

That's very interesting. How, then, are these risks exasperated when a situation, such as the one with CTV News, as discussed earlier, happens? In other words, this “if you're not with us, you're against us” kind of attitude....

[Richard Gray]

I think the key point to be made here—and I have tried to do this in my responses to questions up to this point—is this: We made a mistake. It was a mistake that was impossible to foresee. We apologized immediately. We took follow-up steps to ensure that our standards were being met. It was determined that they weren't. We, as a result of that, made the decision that the two employees involved would no longer be part of CTV News or Bell Media, and then we apologized again.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Gray and Ms. Shanahan.

Mr. Gray, before I give the floor to Mr. Villemure, I want to let you know that that he may be asking his questions in French.

Just make sure that your interpretation is working.

[Richard Gray]

It is.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

The floor is yours for six minutes, Mr. Villemure.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you for being here today, Mr. Gray.

We are currently doing a study of the impact of disinformation on the work of parliamentarians. We believe that this presents a danger to democracy. You spoke about the decline in trust, and I would like you to elaborate on that. We know that trust in politicians is declining, but this is also true for the media.

Could you tell us a bit about the source of this erosion of trust that we are seeing today?

[Richard Gray]

It's very difficult to say. If I were to suggest.... Probably the biggest cause is social media, the proliferation of social media and the manner in which it is consumed. Information that is shared on social media does not have the same rigorous journalistic and ethical standards applied to it as we apply and as other media institutions—like the Toronto Star, The Globe and Mail, the National Post, Global News and CBC—apply to their operations. As a result of that, it becomes much more difficult for people to know what they can trust, who they can trust or what they should trust.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

How does CTV define disinformation?

[Richard Gray]

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure I understand your question.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

What is disinformation, from your perspective?

[Richard Gray]

Disinformation, from my perspective, is anything that is inaccurate.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Has CTV been targeted by disinformation originating from foreign influence, for example?

[Richard Gray]

Not that I'm aware of, no.