Evidence of meeting #133 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was gray.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Richard Gray  Vice-President, CTV News, Bell Media Inc.
John McAndrews  Managing Director, Digital Society Laboratory, McMaster University, As an Individual
Neal Kushwaha  Chairperson, National Security Centre of Excellence

4:25 p.m.

Vice-President, CTV News, Bell Media Inc.

Richard Gray

I initiated a due process investigation into this matter, which was conducted by professionals. I was apprised at all steps as to what discussions were occurring, and I came to the conclusion following that investigation that it was necessary for these individuals to no longer be members of the CTV News team.

Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC

I agree with that because it sounds like a step that needed severe disciplinary action.

However, my question is.... Today you've testified as to their motive, and you've stated that you don't believe that they did something for wrong reasons. I won't use Mr. Caputo's word of “mistake”, although I think you did use it. How would you know that if you haven't directly taken the time to speak to them to understand?

4:25 p.m.

Vice-President, CTV News, Bell Media Inc.

Richard Gray

Based on the explanations offered, it is reasonable.

Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC

That's all second-hand. That's all hearsay. You've come here to testify on behalf of CTV, and you didn't actually take the time yourself, in what you describe as an incredibly serious incident, one that was very embarrassing to the network. Why would you have not personally taken the time to meet with these two people to understand?

Have you reviewed the previous footage of this reporter and of this producer to check to see whether they did this on any other occasion? Have you gone back to previous footage?

4:25 p.m.

Vice-President, CTV News, Bell Media Inc.

Richard Gray

No, there have never been any—

Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC

Why would you have not gone back? If I know somebody has done something wrong and that it's incredibly serious, wouldn't I want to go back to see if they've done it before? I mean, you only had to randomly look at, let's say, 10 of 100 of the different stories covered by this reporter to look at that.

Why would CTV not do that?

4:30 p.m.

Vice-President, CTV News, Bell Media Inc.

Richard Gray

I didn't feel it was necessary.

Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC

I can say that it's not only the Conservatives, from my perspective, who have concerns, because I am not a Conservative and I have concerns about the way it sounds this matter was treated in terms of.... I don't think it was taken seriously enough.

Again, have you changed any policies? Have you changed any company policies as a result of this incident on a forward-looking basis?

4:30 p.m.

Vice-President, CTV News, Bell Media Inc.

Richard Gray

We took appropriate action in this case through two apologies.

Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC

I'm not questioning your apologies. I believe you apologized. I believe you fired two people. I just want to understand. As a result of what happened—two people were allowed to do something that violated policy—what has been done to prevent two people in the future from doing exactly the same thing? What has changed in your policy?

4:30 p.m.

Vice-President, CTV News, Bell Media Inc.

Richard Gray

I want to correct something that you just said.

Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC

Okay.

4:30 p.m.

Vice-President, CTV News, Bell Media Inc.

Richard Gray

Two people were not “allowed” to violate policy. Two people violated policy, and there were consequences for that violation of policy.

Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC

I'm not trying to suggest that CTV gave permission to the two of them to violate policy. The two of them did violate a policy.

What has been done to prevent two people from doing exactly the same thing tomorrow?

October 10th, 2024 / 4:30 p.m.

Vice-President, CTV News, Bell Media Inc.

Richard Gray

As I've said repeatedly, this is the first time I've ever experienced anything like this in 33 years.

Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC

I know, but you haven't gone back to look at the footage of what these people had done before. You didn't go back to previous stories to check to see whether they did it. It's just that nobody was ever aware of it because no Conservative staffer ever caught it.

Will you undertake to the committee to go back and look at 10 previous stories done by these two people to see whether there is anything in there that CTV may not be aware of?

4:30 p.m.

Vice-President, CTV News, Bell Media Inc.

Richard Gray

I don't think it's necessary, because there had never been previous complaints about the conduct of these individuals.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

Thank you, Mr. Housefather.

Unfortunately, that concludes our time with Mr. Gray.

Mr Gray, I want to thank you for appearing before the committee today and making yourself available.

I am going to suspend as we get set for the next panel.

The meeting is suspended.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

I call the meeting back to order.

Welcome back, everyone. I appreciate your patience.

We're now entering our second hour. I'd like to welcome our witnesses for today.

As an individual, on Zoom, we have John McAndrews, who is the managing director of the digital society laboratory at McMaster University. From the National Security Centre of Excellence, we have Neal Kushwaha, who is the chairperson.

I'm going to start with you, Mr. McAndrews. You have up to five minutes to address the committee with an opening statement.

Go ahead, sir. Thank you.

John McAndrews Managing Director, Digital Society Laboratory, McMaster University, As an Individual

Thank you, and good afternoon.

My name is John McAndrews. I'm the managing director of the digital society lab.

We are an interdisciplinary research centre based at Hamilton's McMaster University. For transparency, the digital society lab has received funding from the Canada Foundation for Innovation, the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council of Canada, Mitacs, McMaster University and Facebook's parent company, Meta. These funders do not decide how the lab does its research or what it publishes. Our list of funders can be found on our website: digitalsocietylab.org. The lab is also a proud member of the Canadian Digital Media Research Network, and receives in-kind support from the CDMRN in the form of space in its surveys.

It is an honour to appear before your committee today.

Let me begin by speaking plainly about why, in my view, misinformation, and particularly misinformation circulated on social media, is so hard to deal with.

First, misinformation is hard to detect and its effects are hard to measure—not impossible, but hard.

Second, the underlying technologies in this space are changing rapidly, and it is challenging for both research and policy to keep up.

Lastly, there are sometimes difficult trade-offs regarding free expression in deciding if or how to respond to misinformation. It is the job of Parliament to make some of these calls, in my view, and I do not envy you in your task.

Next, let me say a few words about how the digital society lab is trying to help. The lab has two in-progress research projects about misinformation. In the first, we begin with the premise that, while new technologies risk making the ancient problem of misinformation worse, some of those same technologies also have the potential to help humans combat misinformation. The lab is thus actively developing applications of generative AI to help distill fact-checkable claims from among the vast numbers of posts on social media, and to then leverage information about how these claims are created and shared to provide timely insights. We envision this as a kind of early-warning system to surface potentially misleading claims for further human review.

In the second lab project, we begin by observing that amidst the growing international body of research about misinformation, we still do not know enough about what features of misinformation the public considers to be harmful and what types of responses citizens consider appropriate. To that end, the lab has recently embarked on new, pilot, survey-based research to answer these questions for our partners at CDMRN.

The work of both of these projects is preliminary and not yet peer-reviewed, but I believe it holds promise in better understanding misinformation and public support for policy responses to it.

In the time remaining, let me turn to offering for your consideration three recommendations for how this committee can help fight misinformation and build a more resilient information ecosystem.

First, this committee should recommend robust, sustainable, public support for research about misinformation and its effects in Canada. This should come in the form of public funding for high-quality, transparent and publicly accessible scientific research, and in the form of rules that require platforms to share their data with researchers under appropriate conditions and protections.

Second, echoing the views of prior witnesses, this committee should also recommend robust, sustainable, public support for initiatives that promote up-to-date, evidence-based media and science literacy efforts. There is no single response to misinformation, but an important feature of such literacy efforts, in my view, is that they largely sidestep the most difficult trade-offs regarding free expression, which I noted earlier.

Lastly, this committee should maintain its own ongoing visibility into the subject matter. To my mind, this means regular quarterly or annual hearings about the state of misinformation in Canada after the committee concludes its present study.

Let me end by commending committee members for undertaking its crucial and timely work.

I look forward to the discussions that follow. Thank you.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

Thank you, Mr. McAndrews. That was under the time. The committee always appreciates very succinct messaging.

Mr. Kushwaha, that gives you a little extra time if you need it.

Please, go ahead, sir. You have up to five minutes, or a little more, to address the committee.

Neal Kushwaha Chairperson, National Security Centre of Excellence

Thank you very much.

Good afternoon, Chair, vice-chairs and committee members. Thank you for inviting me to offer the findings and recommendations of the National Security Centre of Excellence.

The NSCOE is a Canadian NGO composed of academics and practitioners covering key elements of international law and domestic law, technology, policy and politics that impact Canada and Canadians. We assist private and public sectors with their insider and foreign threat actor risks and issues through research across Canada as well as globally.

Our findings are summarized as advice, maintaining privacy, and are shared with various departments and agencies of the Government of Canada to help them formulate policy.

I will begin with some normalizing information regarding espionage and sabotage. Under international law, espionage and sabotage are expected from foreign states, dating long since before all of us were born. We do it too. Indeed, key areas are considered off limits, including inherently governmental functions and critical infrastructure.

When entities behave this way, our domestic laws can hold them criminally accountable. While we expect foreign governments to perform espionage and sabotage, we don't expect foreign companies, nor individuals, to do so. When they do, the government where they reside or are headquartered should hold them accountable. When their government does not hold them accountable, others could consider these actors organs of the state acting on behalf of their government. Cyberspace presents another means to perform such actions. It's not surprising or new.

With that out of the way, I present to you our findings. On September 27, Vanessa Lloyd and David Vigneault testified at the foreign interference commission. They shared examples of foreign activities by the governments of China, Pakistan, India, Iran and others. While studying the behaviours of China and Russia at our centre, we noticed the trend of these countries and their ability to perform intricate influence activities over cyber that approach—but do not cross—the threshold of armed conflict, limiting Canada's options for lawful responses. Their intricate methods also make it very difficult for the public, or even elected officials, to notice.

As an example, since COVID, working from home is very common and expected. Companies and governments around the world supported this, including the U.S. Army, for matters up to classified secret in 2,000 homes. From a cyber perspective, the communications are well encrypted and considered safeguarded. From a physical perspective, a small sensor on a window will pick up voices, which are sent for processing to determine methods to influence. Civil servants and elected officials remain easy targets.

Similarly, we've studied the behaviours of Canadians raising monies within domestic communities to send abroad to influence the public of another country. These types of activities are not limited to specific cultures or backgrounds of people. Some of the Canadian religious groups are sending money abroad to help with protesting and sometimes violence. Indeed, it's not the entire group of individuals at these places of worship.

We have noticed an increase in the number of active organized crime groups and in those in smaller cities in Canada. In various well-respected restaurants, one can observe drug deliveries to affluent patrons and staff ordered over mobile phones, as they would for an Uber ride. Organized crime groups send their monies into foreign jurisdictions using cryptocurrency and influence foreign policy and publicly elected officials.

We believe Canadian laws are not adequately written or tested to counter such activities. Because of this, certain governments in Europe and Asia see Canada as supporting foreign influence and even terrorism. While the U.S. is a strong ally, they have very different views and legal disputes on matters important to Canada, such as trade and our Arctic sovereignty. U.S.-headquartered companies are highly influential in civil servant promotions in terms of offering them well-remunerated roles upon their retirement, influencing government operations and senior decision-making. Foreign-headquartered companies are employing Canadians, allowing foreign states to legally drive influence through their headquartered companies into the minds of their staff located in Canada.

These are really no quick solutions. I'll move on to our recommendations.

The Government of Canada should undertake comprehensive educational programs to immunize Canadian society against misinformation and information manipulation in general using Finland's model. Almost a decade ago, Finland recognized the same vulnerabilities as Canada does today and embarked on a whole-of-society education effort to protect democracy, bringing fact-checking awareness to kindergarteners up to and including retirees.

Canadian voters located abroad fall directly under the jurisdiction and influence of foreign states. Our findings suggest that some states are using this as a strategic long-term influence vehicle. The only reasonable mitigations to such influence upon foreign-located Canadians are to strengthen international norms in Canada's favour.

Cyberspace has only been around for 30 years, and in that time we can't formulate international customary law. We've signed treaties. In 2015, Canada ratified the 2001 Budapest Convention on Cybercrime, but we haven't signed the additional two protocols, nor the 2014 Malabo convention.

Like in many other countries, Canadian civil servants were stuck accepting data sovereignty risks on behalf of Canada. Instruments like the UN convention against cybercrime exist; however, the centre is recommending rejecting the treaty as it diminishes our sovereignty. It's the centre's position that Canada should continue to promote good state behaviour through open communications and normative behaviours. We need to show international parties we do not support these actions onto others from within Canada and upon Canada.

Thank you very much for your time and best of luck.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

Thank you, Mr. Kushwaha.

I'm going to start by going to Mr. Caputo. We have six-minute rounds to start, and Mr. Caputo is going to start us off for six minutes.

Go ahead, sir.