Evidence of meeting #133 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was gray.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Managing Director, Digital Society Laboratory, McMaster University, As an Individual
I would commend for your consideration the June issue of the journal Nature, which expands on this healthy discussion about the prevalence and effects of misinformation on social media.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you for that.
Thank you, Mr. Bains.
The floor is yours for six minutes, Mr. Villemure.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. McAndrews, I have done some extensive studying of the work done by the digital society laboratory you belong to, and I have found the research it does very interesting. A lot of people have appeared here and described disinformation for us, but I would like you to tell me about the future of disinformation.
Managing Director, Digital Society Laboratory, McMaster University, As an Individual
Thank you very much for the question, Monsieur Villemure. I'll do my very best.
In earlier testimony, Professor Bengio said he didn't think we spent enough time talking about the future, and I entirely agree. Right now, as he has testified to, generative AI is making it cheaper and easier to create deceptive video and audio and to better target messaging to individuals. We need to make sure that research and policy keeps up with that. He is better placed than I am to describe the future of generative AI—I'm a political scientist by background—but I do worry very much that we will struggle to keep up with the changing technology in this space.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
The reference to Mr. Bengio is excellent, by the way.
Our mandate relates to parliamentary disinformation, so I would like to ask you what you see in your crystal ball when it comes to parliamentary and political disinformation.
Managing Director, Digital Society Laboratory, McMaster University, As an Individual
This is always difficult terrain for looking into the crystal ball.
I think the most optimistic scenario is that we're going to create a transition whereby people will observe more and more deceptive material and may turn back to more trusted sources that have a long-standing code of ethics and the resources to do the careful work of compiling and presenting the news in compelling ways. That's the most optimistic view.
The more pessimistic view is that the information ecosystem becomes overly polluted to the point that people tune out. As a political scientist, I worry not just that people might believe false things, but that they also don't know enough. I worry that many folks are not interested in politics, as it is very much their right and perhaps also their privilege, but the danger is that as more and more people tune out because they cannot distinguish between true and false, it further degrades our democracy.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Thank you, Mr. McAndrews.
Mr. Kushwaha, we might say that everywhere we look in public life, truth has been replaced by whatever seems plausible, and with truth now being out of reach, people are satisfied with something seeming plausible. This opens a door somewhere to disinformation. What do we do in a society where truth is out of reach?
Chairperson, National Security Centre of Excellence
That is a good question: What do we do? With all the doctored videos we see today, I think people are going to just close their ears. The problems associated with this have been discussed here before.
People will just ignore everything, and it's going to come to a point that it doesn't matter what you present.
I think there are already societies in the world that have got to that point.
We have something to learn from them.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Earlier, you talked about the fine line between what is legal and what is illegal. It separates the two, but it connects them at the same time. Could you elaborate on that, please?
Chairperson, National Security Centre of Excellence
You're talking about what I said about China and Russia, is that it?
Chairperson, National Security Centre of Excellence
We have done studies in Europe, with the Europeans, and it is very clear that since about 2012, Russia has constantly been finding new ways to interfere in the affairs of other countries. Its campaigns are very obvious and it is easy to understand what it is doing. Once again, however, because this is not quite covered by the laws of war, there is not much we can do.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Apparently.
I have another hard question for you. Earlier, we were told that the truth does not matter much these days. You talked about Finland, and a few other people have also talked to us about that. What I take from it is that it is really important to have very strong media and to start educating people from a very young age.
I wonder about critical thinking, which is no longer being taught. It is not being taught anywhere in Quebec and Canada, unless you do a Ph.D. in philosophy, for example. Do you have any suggestions about this? Forget about levels of government for a minute. If people are not interested in the truth, we cannot hope to interest them in critical thinking.
Chairperson, National Security Centre of Excellence
What are children, even older ones, seeing on television or on their phones? They see celebrities or people with money, driving some car or other or flying to get somewhere. They don't want to learn.
Bloc
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Okay.
If I look at what is happening on X these days, I see that the whole world seems to be at war with one another. The atmosphere is negative.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
All this negativity is not disinformation in itself, but the effect is to make us want to give up on the news.
Chairperson, National Security Centre of Excellence
That is absolutely correct. If you compared Canada to countries like China or even India, would you say they are abandoning education?
Conservative
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
My questions are going to be for Professor McAndrews.
Welcome to committee. Obviously, as a Hamilton MP, I think it's always good to have our best and brightest before parliamentary committees offering subject matter expertise.
My question for you is really trying to get back to your opening statement, which was around recommendations. You spoke of rules, and I believe it was in the context of algorithmic transparency. You talked about having that enforced under appropriate conditions. Is that correct?