Evidence of meeting #136 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was see.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
We are in public now, and we are on committee business.
I have a list. I have Matt Green, Michael Barrett and Iqra Khalid. I'm going to start with Mr. Green.
Go ahead, sir.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I appreciate the opportunity to table the motion that I put on notice yesterday:
That in relation to media reports that privacy breaches of more than 31,000 accounts at the Canada Revenue Agency have gone unreported and resulted in the loss of millions of dollars, the committee commence a study of at least two meetings and invite to appear the Minister of National Revenue, Marie-Claude Bibeau; the Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Philippe Dufresne; and representatives from H&R Block, and that the committee report its findings to the House.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. Green.
The motion was put on notice, and we are in committee business, so the motion is in order.
Go ahead, Ms. Khalid, on the motion, please.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Thank you very much, Chair.
First, I'd like to thank Mr. Green for bringing forward this very important issue. I think it is absolutely in the right of the ethics committee to be delving into issues such as this, and they mean a lot in maintaining the public trust in our agencies and our democratic institutions.
I do have a couple of amendments to make to this motion, with unanimous consent, possibly, or the will of the committee.
First and foremost, I will ask that we restrict the timeline that we are going to study. Where it says, “That in relation to media reports that privacy breaches of more than 31,000 accounts at the Canada Revenue Agency”, I would like to add “between 2020 and 2023” to contextualize exactly what it is that we're talking about.
Then, I would also propose that we delete, right after that, “have gone unreported and resulted in the loss of millions of dollars”, because I think that is something that would be in the report, in what comes after or based on what we hear from witnesses. I don't think we should pre-empt any of the testimony.
I would also like to add a couple of witnesses to this. In addition to the Minister of National Revenue, Marie-Claude Bibeau, I think we should also add the commissioner, Bob Hamilton, and representatives from the Canada Revenue Agency to come to talk about this because, oftentimes, the way things are structured, this is not just a ministerial problem or issue that needs to be resolved. I think this is also an agency issue that they need to come to speak to as well.
I have copies of my amended motion that I can circulate, Chair, if that's okay, for members to look at while we discuss this.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
I will need an electronic copy for Monsieur Villemure.
There's one bit of confusion that I had. Hopefully this will clear it up. It's about breaches that were reported at the Canada Revenue Agency between 2020 and 2023, so that puts a timeline on the study for those four years, effectively.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
Chair, I'm sorry. I'm having trouble hearing you. There's a lot of chit-chat.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
We have translation looking for a copy of the amendment.
Let's keep the chatter down while we discuss this.
“Between 2020 and 2023” is effectively a four-year timeline, and then you're looking to strike, in your amendment, “have gone unreported and resulted in the loss of millions of dollars”. You're looking to strike that part.
You're then adding a couple of witnesses, and that includes Commissioner Bob Hamilton and representatives from the Canada Revenue Agency. I suspect that you'll leave it for us to determine, through the analysts, who those representatives are.
That clarifies that. We're on the proposed amendment.
Does Mr. Villemure have a copy?
We don't seem to have an electronic copy for Mr. Villemure.
Mr. Villemure, I'll read the motion as amended by Ms. Khalid:
That, in relation to media reports that privacy breaches affected more than 31,000 accounts at the Canada Revenue Agency between 2020 and 2023, the committee commence a study of at least two meetings and invite to appear the Minister of National Revenue, Marie‑Claude Bibeau, the commissioner, Bob Hamilton, and representatives of the Canada Revenue Agency.
Ms. Khalid is proposing three amendments to the motion. We will send them out electronically.
Mr. Green, I see your hand up on the amendment proposed by Ms. Khalid. Go ahead, sir.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
One of the things that occurred to me is this. We still don't quite know the extent of the payouts. The one consideration I would ask for is that we say “since 2020”, because there's a very real likelihood that breaches that happened in 2023 could have resulted in fraudulent payouts in 2024.
It's not material. We just want to go for the entirety of.... I don't want to cut this year out because, if there are material impacts, then....
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
I don't see that being an unreasonable demand, but I'll go to Ms. Khalid at this point.
Go ahead, Ms. Khalid.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Thanks, Chair.
That is what my understanding is. Based on the article, we're talking about 31,000 accounts reported between these years. I don't think what happened in between that is impacted by these timelines. We're not looking at accounts beyond what you're asking for in this motion. We're not looking at accounts, say, in 2024, where something may have happened. We're looking at the timeline of what was reported.
Is that correct?
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
We don't know what we don't know. What was reported came after deep research by the investigators. I don't see what the material issue is in extending it to encapsulate that, should there be some issues that happened in 2024.
Liberal
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
That's where the fraud is taking place. It's on the payouts, not the filing dates.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Would it be okay if, for now, we talk about these fiscal years? Then, if something material comes out of the witness testimony—we added more witnesses as opposed to taking some away—we can expand the scope of the motion.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
I see both sides of the issue.
I see what you're saying, Mr. Green. I don't think yours is an unreasonable request.
I think Ms. Khalid's proposition that perhaps, over the course of the testimony.... I mean, it would be a very simple question to ask: Are we seeing this occur in the year 2024? If that's the case, it may open it up for the committee to further investigate 2024 and expand the scope of this.
I think there's an easy solution here, Mr. Green, one that we can figure out once we get the witnesses in front of us.
Go ahead.
October 29th, 2024 / 4:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Okay.
Why don't we leave it as is, and later on, if we need to, we can do that?
Thank you, Mr. Green.
Go ahead, Mr. Villemure.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I just received the amended motion.
I agree with the terms we discussed, but I would like to propose a friendly amendment to add the name of one witness, André Lareau from Université Laval. It was through him that we found out about all this.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
All right. What you're proposing is a subamendment.
That would be to add André Lareau's name to the list.
I believe he was the one mentioned in the article.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
All right.
Mr. Caputo, I saw that your hand was up. We're dealing with a subamendment right now from Mr. Villemure. Did you want to speak to that?