Evidence of meeting #138 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was review.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
I appreciate your advising us that you're reviewing the matter.
Now, if you want to refer something to the RCMP, is the Minister of Justice required to have any intervention or involvement?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
You would have to ask the RCMP that. Once I've sent something to the RCMP and they do their work, I assume they discuss it with the public prosecution office. I don't believe that—
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
If you find that someone has violated the act, are you required to refer that to a cabinet minister?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Absolutely not, and I would not.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. Barrett.
We're going to go now to the member for Châteauguay-Lacolle, Mrs. Shanahan.
Go ahead, please.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
Thank you very much, Chair.
I thank the witnesses for being before us today. This is not the first time that I've had the opportunity to question you both over the years in different circumstances, and I'm very pleased to be doing so today.
I'm going to turn first to Madame Bélanger as the Commissioner of Lobbying.
First of all, thank you for very clearly stating your role and your approach and how you work.
Do cute little derogatory names that are attributed to the different people you may be looking at affect your work at all?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I'm a lawyer by trade. I have been a neutral public servant my whole life. I look at the facts. I look at every single letter that's brought to my attention. I look at every newspaper article, and I open files. I look at everything. The names don't have an impact. I look at facts, and I look into facts, and it's the facts that determine the next steps in any of the files that I review.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
Because you do have a public-facing role, do you think the public is affected when these cutesy names are attached to people prior to any investigation that you may be undertaking?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I really don't think I have a view of what the public thinks. I'm not going to go there.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
I thank you for your integrity in the way that you conduct yourself, and I think it is worthy of the values of Parliament and the role that you undertake.
I'd like to ask you now for an update on your investigation into Jenni Byrne. I believe that it came up the last time you appeared at this committee, Jenni Byrne and Forecheck Strategies. As was widely reported in the spring—and, of course, this was after Pierre Poilievre's election as leader of the Conservative Party of Canada—the lobbying firm run by Pierre Poilievre's top strategist, Jenni Byrne, established a second company, Forecheck Strategies—I believe this was reported in The Globe and Mail, so you must be aware—housed in the same office for the purposes of lobbying federally.
In your last visit, you confirmed that you had indeed initiated a review. Is there an ongoing investigation?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
There is an ongoing review.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
Thank you for that.
Have you completed your initial review?
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
Can you talk to us about what steps that would normally take?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
When I do a preliminary review, we usually approach a few witnesses, and then from there I decide if I have enough information to proceed to an investigation to ensure compliance.
If it's a matter under the act—if there should have been a registration and there is none—usually I will not talk to the person who is possibly the person who should have registered, in the event that this goes to the RCMP. So, it's very much an administrative review, which I then will suspend and send to the RCMP if I have reason to believe that registration should have occurred.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
Okay, so there are two things there.
Who would be the witnesses you would question, in this case?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Usually, it will be public servants, all of you, senators, public office holders, those who met with those individuals who potentially require registration.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
That review is ongoing.
The second thing is this. Have you had to suspend the review for any reason? Do you see that you will be suspending, for the reasons that Mr. Barrett evoked when he questioned you earlier?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I will not comment on whether or not I've suspended it or if I'm in an investigation, simply to ensure that if this ever leads to an RCMP investigation I don't jeopardize that.
This conversation needs to happen, again, in a review of the act, because as much as it is frustrating for all of you not to know where my investigations lead, it's frustrating for me not to be able to talk about them. There needs to be a middle ground and there needs to be a conversation about what the processes should be, because right now it's all or it's RCMP. There's nothing in the middle. There need to be monetary penalties. There needs to be a way for me to publish that I'm of the view that there have been some breaches that don't necessarily amount to a criminal offence. That conversation needs to happen during a review of the act, which, again, is long overdue.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
That's very interesting. So there is a possibility that you may have to, in this case, suspend and send it to the RCMP. You're not at that stage yet.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I'm not prejudging, but there's always a possibility in every single case I look at.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
All right. Very good.
Do I still have time, Mr. Chair?
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
All right.
I have a quick question for Madame Maynard on the current financing model.
Does the current funding model adequately meet your needs?
Does it allow you to update your role at this time?
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
At the moment, the funding mechanism isn't independent. I absolutely have to make a request like any government department.
Is that enough? No, that isn't the case. I need additional resources.