Information & Ethics Committee on Nov. 5th, 2024

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Let's talk about that, because we've danced around this issue. For five years, I've seen you in some capacity in front of the public accounts committee, in front of OGGO and now here at the ethics committee talking about the funding model. What would be the ideal annual budget for the office that would restore an adequate depth of capacity for good?

[Nancy Bélanger]

I don't want to advance a number, because I haven't actually done that study, but I would think that if I want to at least.... I wouldn't say double, but close.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

How would your office's services be improved if the budget was larger?

[Nancy Bélanger]

I'm sorry; I didn't hear the question.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

How would your office's services be improved should your budget be larger—not double, but let's just say larger?

[Nancy Bélanger]

We meet our service standards now when we discuss with lobbyists, but certainly there would be more outreach. There would be more documents, advisory opinions and more information on our registry. That would be a big push.

Right now, I have 47 compliance files. I would hope that there wouldn't be much of a backlog. I think that everything would be more efficient and faster and stay more relevant.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

We spoke about the funding model. I'm giving you the opportunity now to give specificity about what arm's-length, predictable funding would look like that's non-politicized. Perhaps you could comment on that.

[Nancy Bélanger]

The model would be such that we do not have to go through departments we are regulating, the government, to ask for money in order to be able to do our work effectively and efficiently. Ideally, we'd come to a committee, a neutral committee, that would listen to us and that we are accountable to, such as this committee, to explain the work we do and the funding we need, the resources we need.

Work fluctuates. There are years when I've opened 40 files, and there is another year when I've done 24. Maybe there would be a way to give back the money that I don't need to my colleague, and she can give me some when she doesn't need it.

Something needs to happen, because it shouldn't go through the government of the day.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

This is my last question for you. We're certainly seized with the studies on foreign interference. Foreign influence can also take place in lobbying, be it registered or unregistered.

Has your office ever been briefed on the possible threats of foreign interference using lobbyists or like agents?

[Nancy Bélanger]

No, I have not been briefed on those threats. I have been briefed on the legislation and the registry.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Is it something that you consider?

[Nancy Bélanger]

It would be something I consider, but I don't know if at any point I will have all of the.... I certainly have top security, but I don't know if it's something that all the agencies would be willing to share with me.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I'll go one step further, given that you are on the front lines and given that corporations are often owned by foreign actors, including, sometimes, state governments that are actively trying to both advocate for their financial interests in Canada and involve themselves in political decision-making. I think about the oil and gas lobby, for instance, which is touted as a Canadian resource but is owned by various foreign actors.

Would it be helpful for you to at least have some kind of supplementary training to be able to flag instances where you might see undue activity from these types of entities?

[Nancy Bélanger]

Absolutely. Yes.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Would that be a recommendation you would make to this committee?

[Nancy Bélanger]

I could certainly make that recommendation to this committee.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

What other recommendations do you have?

[Nancy Bélanger]

I have lots. I started with 11 of them in 2021 and I've added some to my list.

The first one has to be registration by default. Corporations and organizations speaking to all of you for up to 30 hours a month without needing to register is not right. It's completely wrong. As I stated in my opening remarks, I plan to give new meaning to “significant part of the duties” and to reduce that threshold. If I am reappointed—head's up—it's coming down. It will not be 32 hours anymore. That's the first thing.

The second is the monthly communication reports that are oral and arranged in advance. Why does it matter if they are arranged in advance? It's the content of the conversation that matters. Who arranged them is irrelevant as well. Whether you meet them at the corner of the street or in your office, by chance or because it was planned, that needs to be in the registry.

There's a spectrum of sanctions.... Do you want me to go on? I'll stop now.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

No. More, more—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I'm going to give Mr. Green an opportunity to pick this up a bit later.

That concludes our first round.

We're going to start the five-minute round with Mr. Cooper.

Go ahead, sir.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Madame Maynard, your investigation into the arrive scam remains ongoing. Is that correct?

[Caroline Maynard]

Yes.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you for that.

We recently saw reports—I'm not going to ask you to weigh in on them—in which the Canada Border Services Agency said that over 1,800 emails that a parliamentary committee had ordered to be produced had been destroyed. Now, miraculously, those emails have been found.

Hypothetically, if you were to find in the arrive scam investigation, or any other investigation, that a government official destroyed government documents or emails, what remedies do you presently have at your disposal?

[Caroline Maynard]

If I believe there's an intent to destroy these documents to not provide the information, my only action plan is to send it to the Attorney General for their review of a possible criminal act.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

You would have to refer it to the present Attorney General, who sits in Justin Trudeau's cabinet. Is that correct?