Information & Ethics Committee on Nov. 5th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I will now call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 138 of the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics.

Pursuant to Standing Order 111.1(1) and the motion adopted by the committee on Tuesday, October 22, 2024, the committee is considering the certificate of nomination for Caroline Maynard to the position of Information Commissioner, referred to the committee on Monday, October 21, and we are also considering the certificate of nomination for the position of Commissioner of Lobbying, referred to the committee also on Monday, October 21, 2024.

What I've decided to do, for the benefit of the committee, given the fact that we are well over an hour into this, is to put Ms. Maynard and Ms. Bélanger together on a panel. Originally, it was supposed to be separate, but respecting everybody's time.... Now, I will let the committee know that we do have up to two hours, but I'm going to leave it to the discretion of the committee to tell me when they're finished with their lines of questioning.

The other thing I'd like to do—and we've done this before—is to give Monsieur Villemure and Mr. Green an opportunity to reset the time at the hour after the questions. If the committee is okay with that, I'd like to propose that as well. Are we good?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Okay.

We're going to start with you, Ms. Maynard, if you don't mind. You have up to five minutes to address the committee, followed by Madame Bélanger. Go ahead, please.

[Caroline Maynard, Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada]

Hi, everybody. I am pleased to appear before you today in the context of my proposed reappointment as Information Commissioner of Canada.

Nearly seven years ago, I arrived before this committee with a deep desire to serve Canadians, a relentless focus on results and a vision of how I intended to fulfill my role as an agent of Parliament. I had four specific priorities: ensuring the work at my office was open and transparent, improving collaboration with stakeholders to address barriers in the system, tackling the existing backlog of complaints and preparing to implement legislative amendments to the Access to Information Act.

I'm proud of my record in each of these areas. My accomplishments are reflected in the annual reports that I tabled, as well as in the background document that I provided to you before my testimony today.

Under my leadership, the Office of the Information Commissioner is an employer of choice. My team may be working in a challenging environment, but they truly enjoy their work and believe in our rights to access information. Our high retention rate and the impressive results of employee surveys over the course of my mandate attest to this.

I have worked hard to improve the overall health of the access to information system, which has not been meeting its legislative purpose. Through my systemic investigations, I have put the spotlight on the root causes of issues. I have also met frequently with ministers, senior department officials, management teams and employees. The goals of such meetings are always to promote culture change, to encourage better performance and to facilitate compliance.

In terms of enforcement, whenever I have been able to resolve complaints without resorting to issuing orders, I have done so, but I have also not hesitated to spur institutions to action through my orders and, when necessary, through litigation in the courts.

I've also taken my role as an adviser to parliamentarians very seriously. I understand that we live in an era of societal and technological change. We are dealing with outdated systems, poor information management and declining public confidence in public institutions. So I’ve tried to be a trusted source of information and expertise in the area of access to information. I've done everything I can to ensure that the activities of the Office of the Commissioner are clearly presented and that the state of the system is clearly assessed. My testimony was based on observations and investigations by my team.

I believe my renewal would represent stability for the office, the ATIP community and Canadians, allowing me to continue to build on what I have accomplished so far. If I am given the honour to continue in this role, I will carry out my duties with the same determination and focus on results I have shown through my mandate.

I will be relentless in speaking out on the importance of transparency by default, and the role that every public servant must play in ensuring that the rights of Canadians are respected. I have seen how stakeholders advocate for a better system, but I have also seen how hard public servants in the ATIP trenches are trying to make this system work in the meantime. These people have my support, and they need and deserve the support of their leaders in bringing about the necessary transformation.

The policy and legislative changes that I have recommended are based on experience and have been endorsed by stakeholders. As the next review of the act looms on the horizon, I will continue to press for long overdue improvements. They would contribute to making Canada the global leader in transparency that it always should have been.

Finally, my experience as commissioner has made me even more committed to the right to access to information. I know that I've defended and enforced this right effectively. That's why I remain positive and hopeful for the future, and I'm ready to continue to fulfill this role.

Thank you.

I look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Ms. Maynard, for your presentation.

The next person to speak is Ms. Bélanger, for five minutes.

You may begin, please.

[Nancy Bélanger, Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying]

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and members of the committee.

I am pleased to be here today and honoured to be considered for a second term as Commissioner of Lobbying.

When I first appeared before this committee in 2017, I recognized the importance of the federal lobbying regime, which contributes to public confidence in federal institutions and public servants.

After seven years as commissioner, I continue to believe in the importance of this work to support and improve the transparency and ethics of lobbying.

I'm very proud of the work that my team and I have done. I would like to highlight some of those accomplishments.

We've continually improved the Registry of Lobbyists in terms of filing processes, functionality and search functions. We've also improved transparency by aligning topics with the related lobbying details. Monthly reports on oral and organized lobbying of designated public office holders must now identify the details, not just the subject.

We've increased our outreach and engaged with a diverse audience of over 9,000 stakeholders through over 500 presentations.

We broadened our relationships with the media, academia, other government institutions and the international community, while strengthening our proactive engagement with stakeholders. Our website has been renewed to improve the availability of useful information.

I've launched several investigations to ensure compliance with lobbying requirements. This led to 16 referrals of alleged offences to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and six reports of investigations to Parliament.

I also submitted preliminary recommendations to this committee so that they could be considered in improving the Lobbying Act.

Finally, I published a new version of the Lobbyists’ Code of Conduct, which sets out clear ethical standards that lobbyists must respect.

This work was performed against the backdrop of a move, two elections and a pandemic. In addition to the ongoing and increasing corporate reporting obligations, the work was performed by a very small team of about 30 employees. In both 2021 and 2023, we succeeded in obtaining additional budget funding to increase our staff capacity. We now have resourcing for approximately 37 employees, compared to 28 when I started my mandate.

Our current total annual budget is approximately $6.2 million. Roughly $4.7 million goes to salaries and benefits, leaving an operating budget of $1.5 million. Speaking of our budget, I would urge parliamentarians to consider a new funding model that preserves the independence of agents of Parliament.

While we have accomplished a lot, there are plans in place to move forward. I recently issued interpretation bulletins about the application of the act, and should I be reappointed, I expect to issue more, including about the threshold that triggers registration for lobbying done by employees on behalf of their employer. We will expand education and understanding by creating and sharing clear and accessible content about lobbying, including videos and learning modules for various audiences. We will continue to improve the registry at every opportunity so that users can easily and effectively find the information that is available.

Finally, I will continue to prepare in anticipation of a long overdue legislative review of the Lobbying Act. The last review occurred in 2012 and brought no changes. I must impress upon you again that it is important that Parliament make legislative changes so our federal lobbying regime can be the best of its kind and remain effective. This is crucial, because rigorous transparency standards contribute to a healthy democracy.

If I am reappointed to a second term, I will continue to serve Parliament and Canadians in keeping with the mandate set by the Lobbying Act and in accordance with the highest integrity, public sector values and ethical standards.

I would like to conclude by expressing a heartfelt “thank you” to each employee of the office. They are actively engaged and contribute to an exceptional work environment. I am extremely grateful for their dedication, professionalism and excellence in delivering on our mandate. It has truly been an honour and a privilege to lead them during the last seven years, and I appreciate the support they have provided me.

Mr. Chair and committee members, I also want to extend my deepest appreciation to each of you for the respectful and constructive interactions we have had over the course of my time as commissioner.

I welcome this opportunity to answer any questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Madame Bélanger.

As a reminder to committee members, we have up to two hours. I'm going to leave it to your good graces when you want to end this session. If you want to end it early, let me know. If you want to continue up to the full two hours, let me know. We'll accommodate that as best we can.

The other thing I would ask is that you direct your question to each individual distinctly and let them know to whom the question is being directed.

We're going to start with Mr. Barrett for six minutes.

Go ahead, sir.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Commissioner Bélanger, why is registering to lobby important?

[Nancy Bélanger]

It is important for transparency, to make sure that Canadians know who's meeting whom and about what, and what leads to the decisions that decision-makers are making.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Why are your powers under the act to investigate important?

[Nancy Bélanger]

It is to ensure compliance, to ensure there is transparency and to make sure that the requirements of the act, as set out currently, are met.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

What do you think about the shared obligations of parliamentarians and officers of Parliament to ensure Canadians' trust in our democratic institutions?

[Nancy Bélanger]

I believe we have a very important role to play. In fact, I think agents of Parliament are almost guardians of values. The former official languages commissioner said that at one point, and I have always believed in it.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

I've written you some correspondence of late, on October 24 and before that on October 3, both dealing with Mark Carney, an adviser to the Prime Minister. I want to lay out a bit of why that correspondence was necessary. Then I have a couple of questions for you.

First of all, we have, in no particular order, the heat pump hustle by Mark Carney, also known as carbon tax Carney, where we learned that he was using his role as a special adviser to the government in the U.K. to lobby for his own interests. We've seen that this is a behaviour that he's comfortable undertaking.

Now, within days of being appointed to this panel of experts to advise the Prime Minister—we know that it's a panel of one, as he's the only one there—he landed billions in loans for his self-described friend who heads Telesat. This was announced as a way to connect Canadians, but we've learned recently that there are no requirements for a certain number of Canadians to be connected for those billions.

We know that he sits on the board at Stripe. The government was convinced to have credit card companies cap their fees, but Stripe, where he stands to benefit from his interests, isn't passing those savings on. They're benefiting from that as well.

We know that his investment firm holds the second-largest mortgage insurer in the country, which will directly benefit from the announcement that, again, came days after his appointment. These changes will allow for longer amortization periods, meaning that Canadians will pay more interest for longer, benefiting his interests again.

I've written you a couple of letters. Could you articulate what section 10.4 of the act allows you to do?

[Nancy Bélanger]

It allows me to investigate if I have reason to believe the investigation is necessary to ensure compliance.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

You articulated that to me in our most recent correspondence and in past correspondence as well.

You also have an obligation to pass things on to the RCMP. What would trigger that requirement?

[Nancy Bélanger]

When I start an investigation, the moment I have reason to believe an offence has occurred, I immediately suspend my investigation and forward it to the RCMP. I've done that more than 16 times in the last seven years.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Have you handed any files to the RCMP that they are currently reviewing?

[Nancy Bélanger]

They have four suspended files of mine currently.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

That is to say, you suspended four files pending the decision of the RCMP.

[Nancy Bélanger]

I have suspended 16 over the years.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

But you have four currently.

[Nancy Bélanger]

Currently, there are four that continue to be suspended.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

I appreciate that precision. Thank you.

I want to circle back to the piece about Canadians' confidence in your role. I referred to Mr. Mark Carney as carbon tax Carney, but he's quickly earning the moniker of conflict of interest Carney. Are you able to tell Canadians today if you're currently investigating Mark Carney for potential violations under the Lobbying Act?

[Nancy Bélanger]

I won't confirm whether I'm investigating. The reason I don't do that is that I do not want to jeopardize any future possible criminal investigation.

What I will tell you, as I said to you in the letter, is that I look at everything. I've opened more than 170 files in the last seven years. I look at everything. I can tell you that I am reviewing the matter.