Information & Ethics Committee on Nov. 21st, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

All right.

I yield the floor to Mr. Villemure regarding the amendment.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Mr. Chair, I thank my colleague for her candour and co-operation.

Ms. Khalid, I really like your idea and you make me think that it might be a good idea for us to invite David Vigneault as well as the new director, so that there won't be a gap between the testimonies. In fact, the new director wasn't there at the time the investigation took place, and Mr. Vigneault could provide additional information. For my part, I'm very comfortable inviting the two CSIS directors.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Is that a subamendment then, Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Mr. Villemure, Ms. Khalid has proposed an amendment to replace Mr. Vigneault with Mr. Rogers. Would you like your proposal to be a subamendment?

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

All right.

I'm going to accept that as subamendment proposing to invite the two of them.

Ms. Shanahan, go ahead.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I would like to know for what reason the former director would be summoned. Sure, people change roles, but that doesn't mean they can disclose everything they did during their tenure. The same regulations, the same laws, the same constraints will apply. Frankly, I find it redundant.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

That's why both should come. They'll be able to complement each other. So there won't be a dead moment in the narrative. That's the reason for the subamendment.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

The decision has been made, however, since Mr. Rogers has been in office for some time.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I don't know who was or wasn't here during that time.

We are currently discussing the subamendment submitted by Mr. Villemure proposing that we invite both Mr. Vigneault and Mr. Rogers.

I see your hand, Mr. Housefather, and then we'll have Ms. Khalid.

Go ahead on the subamendment.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Chair, I'd like you to consider ruling the subamendment out of order, because it goes against the core reason for the amendment. The core reason for the amendment is to delete the gentleman's name. You can't have a subamendment that would then add it back. I would ask you, perhaps, Mr. Chair, to reconsider. I don't think it's in order.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I'm going to accept it, Mr. Housefather.

I mean, it's up to the committee if they don't want that to occur. They can certainly vote against it if they choose to. I'm going to accept both of them together. I think it's a reasonable proposal that Mr. Villemure has put forward.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I have a point of order. Going back to my original point, while it was nice in theory, they said they were going to be quick. Clearly, that's not the case. We have staff, senior level management, sitting here.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I appreciate that.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

What I would propose to you, Mr. Chair, if it is amenable to the witnesses—and this is coming from somebody who lost their round of questions, by the way—is that we be given the opportunity to provide them questions in writing that they could respond to.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

That's fair enough.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

This is an unforeseeable future.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I'm going to accept that, Mr. Green. I'm going to dismiss the witnesses.

I have a question, Mr. Hamilton, that I will be sending through the clerk on behalf of the committee and that I would like a response to. It's in relation to the CERB fraud. I know that you've done investigations within the CRA. I want an answer as to what other investigations have been done in what other departments. That will be my question for you, sir, when I'm able to do that in writing.

Now, on the subamendment, I have Ms. Khalid.

I have asked for more resources, too.

Go ahead, Ms. Khalid.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thanks very much, Chair.

Do you know what? I think I've made my points.

I will just add, with respect to the ICA, in case I didn't clarify for anybody who was listening, that the ICA refers to the Investment Canada Act.

The reason I said it would be a limited study is that it has a certain classification with respect to its clearance level. The ICA is a specific classification of document, and members of Parliament.... I do have my top secret security clearance, but others don't, so I don't think this is something that should be public with respect to any review or any discussion around those documents.

With that, I will stop there, and then, again, I reiterate my points that any current director of CSIS should be able to talk about anything that has happened in its history. I don't think we need to bring in former directors. I think the job would be done with the current director. It just doesn't make sense to bring somebody back.

I'll park my comments there, Chair.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

We have a subamendment on the floor. I'm going to look for unanimous consent, since I have no other speakers on the subamendment.

Do I have unanimous consent on the subamendment?

On division?

We're going to go to a recorded vote on the subamendment.

I will break the tie by voting in favour.

(Subamendment agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5)

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

The subamendment passes. The amendment now includes Mr. Vigneault and Mr. Rogers.

Do I have consensus on the amendment as amended?

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I'd like a recorded vote.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you.

Just so we're clear, we're on the amendment, which includes Mr. Vigneault and Mr. Rogers. That's where we're at right now, because that was approved in the subamendment.

If you're voting yes, you're voting for Mr. Rogers and Mr. Vigneault to come. If you're voting no, you're voting against the amendment as amended. Let's get back to the vote.

(Amendment agreed to: yeas 10; nays 0)

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Now we are on the main motion as amended. I have no speakers, so I'm going to call the vote.

(Motion as amended agreed to: yeas 10; nays 0)

I have no other business for the committee. I am going to adjourn the meeting.

Have a great weekend. Thank you, everyone.