Information & Ethics Committee on Nov. 21st, 2024

[Marie-Claude Bibeau, Liberal, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

I'm talking about identity theft.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

No, I'm asking for all types of fraud, including GST fraud and carousel schemes. You said “zero tolerance for fraud in all of its forms”.

I'm asking for a number for how much fraud has been perpetrated against the Canadian taxpayer.

[Marie-Claude Bibeau, Liberal, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

When we say we have zero tolerance, that means we have a strong team, we have systems and we have tools to—

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

You don't know a number. Is that the testimony? You don't have a number.

[Marie-Claude Bibeau, Liberal, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Every time fraud is committed, we counter it and we put all the measures in place so that it won't happen again. Then there are prosecutions. That's where we have zero tolerance.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Okay. Thank you.

With respect to identity fraud, I have just one more question on this matter. Since it was a significant number of instances—a sophisticated operation, no doubt—did you report this to the RCMP? Has it been engaged to potentially consider links to organized crime and maybe an inside individual within the CRA who has potentially been aiding and abetting these kinds of schemes?

Have you engaged the RCMP on the identity fraud cases?

[Marie-Claude Bibeau, Liberal, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

The 31,000 privacy breaches we are talking about involve a number of groups. That includes a stuffing attack, among other things, but there are also a number of more or less individual cases. Prosecutions are under way, and our internal criminal investigation team is working on the files. There are different levels of investigations going on.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Okay, but your criminal investigations team is not the RCMP, so the question still remains.

Have any of these identity theft cases, especially those with respect to the third party breaches, been referred to the RCMP, or are you asking for help from the RCMP?

[Marie-Claude Bibeau, Liberal, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

We use the RCMP in some cases, certainly. As I said, over the past five years, there have been 135—

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

I'm sorry. You said “definitely”, so is that a yes, that you've asked the RCMP for help?

[Marie-Claude Bibeau, Liberal, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Certainly. There have been 135 convictions in the last five years. Therefore, convictions must invariably come from the police.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

With respect to the 31,000 breaches and the issue with H&R Block, have you engaged the support of the RCMP?

[Marie-Claude Bibeau, Liberal, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

If you're referring to a specific case, I can't answer that.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Okay. We'll put a pin in that. We can follow up with the commissioner in the next hour.

These frauds often result in a debt owing to the government, a debt owing to the taxpayer. With respect to the very sophisticated GST carousel schemes, what's the highest amount the government has written off with respect to the GST carousel schemes?

[Marie-Claude Bibeau, Liberal, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Once again, you're trying to lead me to a specific issue. I can't do that.

However, what I can tell you about carousel schemes is that we have put a number of measures in place. I can talk about that.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

More generally, what's the single largest amount to a corporate taxpayer that the CRA wrote off last year?

[Marie-Claude Bibeau, Liberal, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

I can't talk about a specific case.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

That's because of section 241. Is that correct?

[Marie-Claude Bibeau, Liberal, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Yes.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Would your position be that your predecessor and the CRA violated section 241 when in 2019 they said that the highest amount they wrote off in 2019 was $133 million? They actually were free to give the highest amount that a corporate taxpayer wrote off.

Minister, do you still want to rely on section 241 privacy?

[Marie-Claude Bibeau, Liberal, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

I'll turn to the commissioner of revenue to see if—

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Is it $100 million? Is it $200 million? Could it be $500 million or maybe $600 million? Like, what amount are we talking about here?

[Marie-Claude Bibeau, Liberal, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

I have the process in front of me, but I can't give you the amounts.

Do you want to answer, Mr. Hamilton?

[Bob Hamilton]

I won't have a number for you either—

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

I'm sorry. I want to be very clear about this. Section 241 does not allow you to hide behind giving anonymized details. A previous minister in a previous CRA department released a number that said that in 2019, $133 million was written off to one taxpayer. My question is this: What was the highest amount written off in the last year?