Evidence of meeting #140 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cases.
A recording is available from Parliament.
NDP
Commissioner of Revenue, Canada Revenue Agency
In the public domain, we will always investigate if somebody does something inappropriate relative to our code of ethics or their duty of loyalty to us. For example, when we found there were a bunch of employees who had claimed CERB, that was inappropriate.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Sure.
Are you currently investigating the whistle-blowers who resulted in the story by The Fifth Estate?
Commissioner of Revenue, Canada Revenue Agency
We are currently looking at all sorts of things that go on in the agency.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
I'm asking you for a direct answer, sir. Could you please provide the committee with a direct answer?
One more time, are you investigating the whistle-blowers who resulted in the story by The Fifth Estate?
Commissioner of Revenue, Canada Revenue Agency
We are looking to determine whether information was true and how it got into the public domain.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Will there be retribution? If so, what will it be for the whistle-blowers?
Commissioner of Revenue, Canada Revenue Agency
—but, as it's been indicated, it can go from minor discipline, such as a verbal or written reprimand, all the way up to termination. It depends on the severity of what happened.
We have strict policies about that, so when something bad happens.... To take the CERB case again, there were people who were fired.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
We're talking with specificity about The Fifth Estate. For the people who are watching, and particularly those who, in the public interest, shared information with the public.... Perhaps they felt their loyalty was to the Canadian taxpayer and making sure that they had the right information, not to a bureaucracy or a government per se.
What do you say to those people who are watching this today?
Commissioner of Revenue, Canada Revenue Agency
I say we take very seriously our responsibility in that regard to be honest and truthful and to protect the Canadian public. However, we also have to protect the information that's within the agency, because your information and my information—
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
—disaggregated information. It's not like they're talking about my receipts. They're talking about a huge breach that resulted in 31,000 cases of fraud. These aren't material privacy breaches of individual files. There is a systematic and structural failure within the agency to figure out what was going on with these third parties.
They obviously felt it wasn't being addressed, so they went public.
As an MP, quite frankly, I feel like we had a duty to know as well. We also did not have the opportunity to know until we found out in the media.
NDP
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
You'll have a chance, Mr. Hamilton, in the second hour. I'm almost certain we're going to revisit this.
Mr. Chambers, you have five minutes, and then we're going to finish this off with Mr. Bains for five minutes.
Conservative
Adam Chambers Conservative Simcoe North, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Minister, you testified earlier that you have “zero tolerance for fraud in all of its forms” at the CRA. What's been the loss to taxpayers from all forms of fraud at the CRA, say, last year?
Liberal
Marie-Claude Bibeau Liberal Compton—Stanstead, QC
Last year, it was about $2 million. This year, as of now, it's $3 million.
Conservative