Information & Ethics Committee on Nov. 21st, 2024

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

I'm sure you do. However, there may be 3,000 employees a year who do that.

[Marie-Claude Bibeau, Liberal, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Right now, we are in human resources management, generally speaking. There is a gradual scale of punishment. If it does not go to trial, it stays in the human resources management bubble. However, I can assure you that it is taken very seriously.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

However, if I told you that there were 3,000 last year, does that surprise you or not?

[Marie-Claude Bibeau, Liberal, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

I don't know.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Okay. This issue will be raised with you again at some point.

In any event, whistle-blowers will often act out of desperation, when nothing they've done has worked. The supervision wasn't working. Something wasn't working. Why do you think a whistle-blower takes action?

[Marie-Claude Bibeau, Liberal, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Again, I struggle with the use of the term “whistle-blower” in our context.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Take it out of context. In general, why does a whistle-blower—as there have been in the past at the agency—take action?

[Marie-Claude Bibeau, Liberal, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

They take action because they believe that the organization could behave differently, as a matter of paradigm.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Okay. In general, how many whistle-blower cases are there per year?

[Marie-Claude Bibeau, Liberal, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Again, do you mean the whistle-blowers who are speaking to the media, or the employees who go to the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner?

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

I'm talking about the whistle-blowers who go outside.

[Marie-Claude Bibeau, Liberal, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Okay. I can't give you a specific answer.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

So there could be 100 or 1,000.

[Marie-Claude Bibeau, Liberal, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

I'd be shocked if it was 1,000.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

This is not the first time there has been a breach of confidentiality or fraud at the Canada Revenue Agency.

[Marie-Claude Bibeau, Liberal, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Let me put things in perspective, though.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Please do.

[Marie-Claude Bibeau, Liberal, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

If I may, I'll give you the dollar amounts.

We hit a spike in identity theft during COVID-19 owing to attestation-based programs. It was the worst year for identity theft, as there was no comparison. In 2020, as you know, and someone mentioned it earlier—

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

However, there have been cases of fraud in the past.

[Marie-Claude Bibeau, Liberal, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Yes, there are always some. However, we're talking about losses of $3 million in identity theft last year, when we're bringing out $59 billion. You see the comparison between the $3 million and the $59 billion. I just wanted to put that in perspective.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Ms. Bibeau.

Mr. Green, I'm going to give you an equal amount of time of three minutes in this round, because Mr. Villemure just had it. Go ahead.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you. I appreciate the equity, sir.

Minister, are you currently investigating whistle-blowers within the CRA?

[Marie-Claude Bibeau, Liberal, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

We are not investigating the employees. We are in the process of reminding employees of their obligations under section 241 of the Income Tax Act.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Hamilton, in a CBC story, you wouldn't deny the fact that you were going through the use of computers to see who was accessing what files and for what. Are you currently investigating whistle-blowers within the CRA?

[Bob Hamilton]

When you talk about whistle-blowers, let me say—