Information & Ethics Committee on Nov. 21st, 2024

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

It was whether or not it's from the hacked accounts. Generally speaking, what is the cost of the total amounts lost due to bogus payouts on GST and business returns?

[Bob Hamilton]

I don't have that number. We actually have officials who will come for the second hour who might be able to help; otherwise, we'll have to get back to you.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[Bob Hamilton]

The other thing I would say on your whistle-blower is, yes, you can't give out taxpayer-specific information, and we also don't talk publicly about the schemes that people are trying to do with us or our actions, because we don't want to perpetuate the playbook, if you like, out in the public domain. We have a strong culture of trying to encourage people, if they see something going wrong, to go through the mechanisms.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I'm sorry. We have to stop you there.

My understanding is that there's a problem with the English translation.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

On a point of order, there's French translation coming in.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I was just made aware of that, Mr. Green. I wonder if we can have a test here to determine....

[A voice]

It's good.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Okay.

That concludes the first round of questions. We will now begin the second round.

Mr. Berthold, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, Ms. Bibeau.

In your opening remarks, you used what I would call government-speak. Unfortunately, your finely crafted presentation provided little detail on what happened, the scope of the problem and the consequences for the citizens who were victims of fraud. There were 31,000 privacy breaches between 2020 and 2023, and 62,000 Canadian taxpayers were directly affected. Have all those cases now been resolved?

[Marie-Claude Bibeau, Liberal, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

I can assure you that, as soon as we have the slightest suspicion that there has been a privacy breach, we notify the person concerned immediately. I want to make that clear.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

So you've told us, Ms. Bibeau.

What I want to know is how many people are still waiting for their cases to be resolved. How many people are still waiting for cheques? Have all the cases been resolved?

[Marie-Claude Bibeau, Liberal, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

I would have to check with the team, but what I can tell you is that there are different levels of privacy breaches. In some cases, the fraudster will have had access to the file, but will not have been able to see anything. So they couldn't have used the information for anything else. Cases like that are resolved quickly.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

I'm talking about cases where fraud has occurred, where money has been paid and an investigation has been launched. As we know, when people are under investigation, no transaction is possible until the situation has been resolved.

I can tell you about two cases, but I'm not allowed to name the people involved, either. In the first case, a complaint was received on April 28, 2022, and it was resolved on July 26, 2024. Therefore, the person was unable to access all the government assistance amounts to which they were entitled for two years. The other case was reported to us on May 20, 2020, but it was not resolved until October 8, 2024.

Ms. Bibeau, as minister, are you not affected when you hear that or read those kinds of articles?

[Marie-Claude Bibeau, Liberal, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Of course I am affected. Each case is certainly important, and I assure you that the agency is doing its utmost, which depends on the level—

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Ms. Bibeau, I want to know what you do, not what the agency does. Do you call the agency to tell it that the problem has to be resolved quickly or do you wait for the next briefing? Do you go after whistle-blowers so that the story doesn't get picked up by the media?

[Marie-Claude Bibeau, Liberal, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

No, that wouldn't be fair.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Tell me what's fair for the people who are waiting for their cases to be resolved and who don't have access to government assistance. Tell me what's fair right now.

[Marie-Claude Bibeau, Liberal, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

I assure you that the people on our teams are working hard.

What I'm trying to say is that the level of attack or access to customers' accounts varies. Some cases can be resolved very easily, while others have a greater impact, requiring more time. We're there to help people. There are protection systems in place, and we are working with TransUnion, for example, to protect the data.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Can you commit to resolving these cases much more quickly? We're talking about people who don't have access to government assistance and families who aren't able to buy food. We all work hard as members of Parliament. You know that there have been horrible cases where people are waiting for solutions. However, what I'm hearing from you is that you can't talk about specific cases, that you're doing your best and that there are different levels of privacy breaches. Again, this is government language.

As minister, you are responsible for the agency. Don't you feel like rattling the cage and telling the agency that these cases must be resolved in two months, so that you can move on to something else?

[Marie-Claude Bibeau, Liberal, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

I'm sure we'll be able to give you much more detailed examples, and I assure you that we're trying to act as quickly as possible, but it doesn't always just depend on the agency. It controls what it can, and it is able to act quickly. However, the situation sometimes goes beyond the agency, which has to work in partnership with other players because it doesn't have all the levers.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Have complaints been made to the police about all those frauds? Is an organized criminal network involved?

[Marie-Claude Bibeau, Liberal, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

The agency can come under different types of attacks. For example, there are “credential stuffing” attacks—

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Have complaints been made to the police?

[Marie-Claude Bibeau, Liberal, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Yes, there are all possible status categories.