No.
Evidence of meeting #140 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cases.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #140 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cases.
A recording is available from Parliament.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Did you know that you were coming to this committee to talk about this issue?
NDP
Commissioner of Revenue, Canada Revenue Agency
I made sure that I was aware of all the actions we have taken, the history of the file—
Commissioner of Revenue, Canada Revenue Agency
I think it's important—not the specific date of when I became aware, but—
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Okay.
Mr. Chair, I just want to make reference that the commissioner has on his desk right now—I'll describe for the Hansard—a briefing document.
I would put to you, Minister, that you would also be well aware of the last five weeks of filibusters that we've had, based on a committee's ability to demand documents. Is that correct?
The reason I'm bringing that up, sir, is that I don't want to have to ask this committee to move a motion to request that you submit all the documents that are sitting on that table. What I'd rather you do is just answer with clarity, because I am unwilling to accept that you came to this committee without any understanding of the dates on which you would have been informed that these breaches happened.
Commissioner of Revenue, Canada Revenue Agency
Can I take a stab at answering your question?
Commissioner of Revenue, Canada Revenue Agency
I think it's important, first off, to differentiate between two periods. There was the pandemic and there's postpandemic, and there were a lot of breaches that occurred during the pandemic. I think you referenced 23,000 or whatever, and as we went—
Commissioner of Revenue, Canada Revenue Agency
—more cases became known, and it grew to 31,000.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
At what point does it become material enough that you feel like you have a duty of candour to the public to let them know that this scale of privacy breach has happened within your department, sir?
Commissioner of Revenue, Canada Revenue Agency
There was actually a press conference at the time of the pandemic that indicated we had a—
NDP
Commissioner of Revenue, Canada Revenue Agency
—and then we report these in a transparent way to the Privacy Commissioner. I am acknowledging there was a delay in the reporting, but—
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Mr. Hamilton, there seems to be a culture of secrecy here. Can you please tell me about your department's policy on whistle-blowers?
Commissioner of Revenue, Canada Revenue Agency
Sure. I can tell you we're among the most transparent in giving information out. I acknowledge the delay. Our policy on whistle-blowers is that we encourage people to talk to their managers, their supervisors, if they see something. Secondly, we have an internal process whereby, in anonymity, people can bring the concerns they have if they think they see something is going wrong. Then, above that, across the whole government, we have a Public Sector Integrity Commissioner whom people can complain to.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
That leads me to the email that you sent out. I'm sure you'll recall the email that you sent out about upholding our integrity. When we speak about whistle-blowers in the context of public disclosure, we often mean taking a risk at your place of employment to disclose to the public potential malfeasance or malpractice that would be happening within your workplace for the benefit of the public good. You haven't described that. What's your opinion on whistle-blowing as it relates to employees inside your agency who might present to the public problems that are happening within your agency?
Commissioner of Revenue, Canada Revenue Agency
There are two things I would say. We have good internal processes for people to whistle-blow and for action to be taken. The second thing is that employees have a responsibility to not talk about taxpayer information.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
It's not information specifically. It's not disaggregated information.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
It's about a major and massive breach of privacy to the average Canadian for whom, by the way, when that happens, there's the kind of pain.... I help process thousands of tax returns for people, and I know that if there's fraudulent work that's happening there, many of these people—seniors, people on fixed incomes—all of a sudden are not getting their OAS or their GIS. They're not getting all their entitlements, not to mention their tax returns.
I'm going to put one last question to you, sir, in this round, and I'm going to ask you to answer it honestly, so that I don't have to move a motion to demand that you provide it to this committee. What is the total amount lost to the public purse, including on bogus payouts on GST and business returns, whether or not it's from the hacked accounts?
Commissioner of Revenue, Canada Revenue Agency
What was the last part, sorry?