Evidence of meeting #142 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was hamel.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Well, Mr. Caputo, I think we're going to have to be clear on what you're asking for.
Conservative
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Mr. Hamel, Mr. Caputo is asking you to provide that information by province. This is the third question the clerk will follow up with you on. Questions from committee members will be sent to you by email.
Conservative
Liberal
Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thanks again to all of our witnesses for being here.
Uber drivers, Uber Eats drivers, all these gig workers work through bad weather. They work through rainstorms and snow. They're not just delivering a Big Mac. Some of them are delivering groceries. Some of them are delivering medication. They work day and night.
I heard Mr. Hamel say that drivers aren't employees, so I'm going to ask Mr. Wedge what protections these folks who are Uber drivers have, if any.
President, Rideshare Drivers Association of Ontario
Under labour rights, there have none.
Liberal
Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
We have a situation where these folks can make, and do make.... I know some do very well, but some don't. We have a situation where some people don't make the minimum wage.
Ms. Bednar, I was going to ask if you have concerns about AI-driven algorithmic pricing, and then I noticed that you wrote an opinion piece called “An algorithm may soon decide your salary”, so I'm assuming I know the answer to that question.
What legislative or regulatory measures should be taken in Canada to better protect workers?
Executive Director, Master of Public Policy in Digital Society Program, McMaster University, As an Individual
I have done some policy work on this. This is a very contested space in terms of whether there is room for a third category, the category of dependent workers, dependent contractors who are fundamentally dependent on these algorithms, on these frameworks, for the availability of work and for pricing.
Right now, we've bifurcated labour into independent contractors and employees. There may also be a role.... I don't mean to be outlandish, but should these systems be publicly owned infrastructure? Should we have one system where we set a wage floor and where we are not abusing workers, throttling their access to work and throttling their pay, but building digital public infrastructure that allows us to facilitate these sorts of deliveries in a particular way?
I'm not suggesting, directly, a Canada Post for gig work, but when I was working at Instacart—and I'll use the term “working” loosely because of how dependent I was on that algorithm—I was struck that I was occasionally delivering groceries to people with mobility or health issues, or lone parents who didn't have a vehicle, and it made more sense for them to splurge or invest their money in that way. It gave me a different appreciation of the utility of some of these systems, but that doesn't mean that I am supportive of opaque, abusive algorithms.
Liberal
Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
Okay.
Mr. Caputo talked about this a little bit. If I absolutely needed to get somewhere and was willing to pay surge pricing at 4:30 in the afternoon or at 4:00 a.m., will there be algorithms that say that I have, in the past, been willing to pay that? Might that indicate a future willingness to pay a higher price? When I turn that app on, might the algorithm choose to charge me more because I was once willing to do it? Is it that granular?
Executive Director, Master of Public Policy in Digital Society Program, McMaster University, As an Individual
The ad tech that we've come to expect as the price of participation in e-commerce, and the ads that we see on social media, have come to pricing and work in that way.
I can't speak to the details of Uber's algorithm in particular, but based on the research that's out there and other analysis that's being done, I would say to you that, yes, there are attempts to calibrate based on estimations of your income, where you live, what you've paid before, and your history and tenure with the app.
Liberal
Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
Going back to the driver, it's the same type of question. If they say no to a bunch of seven-dollar, eight-dollar and nine-dollar rides, will they, through the algorithm, be punished so that they are no longer getting chosen for those jobs?
Executive Director, Master of Public Policy in Digital Society Program, McMaster University, As an Individual
Workers have documented this. I would defer to others here.
We saw an experiment of sorts in the U.S. by DoorDash drivers, I believe, who coordinated over Facebook to game the algorithm. They united in saying no to very poorly priced jobs. They found that they were able to exert some power over the algorithm and elevate that wage floor.
Again, I defer to other experts who have been drivers or worked with drivers in that way to speak to what they've been experiencing.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
We're at the end of our time, but I'm going to give Mr. Wedge an opportunity to answer if he wants to. He'll have 15 to 30 seconds.
Mr. Wedge, go ahead.
President, Rideshare Drivers Association of Ontario
Yes, we have seen exactly that, where drivers banded together and didn't accept the low pay, and then all of a sudden, it started to creep up. We have even seen, in this new algorithm they're using, that they've tipped the line of pay so that for the short trips, which Uber had a hard time fulfilling in the past, drivers are actually being paid a dollar more.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Okay. Thank you for that, Mr. Wedge.
Mr. Villemure, you have two and a half minutes.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Bednar, what effect has the development of AI had on Uber's operations?
Executive Director, Master of Public Policy in Digital Society Program, McMaster University, As an Individual
I'm sorry. My French is so poor that I can't respond, unless you want to hear the rooms of a house and Halloween words.
What the research shows.... We have seen that surveillance pricing, surveillance at work and that throttling of wages don't inspire people. They demoralize people. They stress them out. They can also hurt their bodies.
There are all sorts of places and other kinds of work that are also algorithmically managed, where we are treating people as if they are a computer. Amazon warehouses are infamous for this. The Amazon pick rate has gone up and up and up. That is based on what is statistically in the realm of possibility for how many items a potential Amazon factory worker could possibly pick.
What is the effect? I would point to the morale, the trust and the uncertainty that we hear about from drivers experiencing that volatility.
At the same time, we also hear from people—and this is important—about the lower barrier to entry. That's something we can all learn about the labour market. It welcomes people. Yes, it is easy to sign up on your phone for something, and not every job in the labour market can be like that, but maybe there are other areas where the barrier to entry for entry-level jobs is too high and there's too much friction, and that demoralizes people too.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Since the arrival of Amazon, Uber and Lyft, among other platforms, it seems that we're living in a surveillance society like the one described by author George Orwell in his novel 1984.
Ms. Bednar, do we live in a surveillance society?
Executive Director, Master of Public Policy in Digital Society Program, McMaster University, As an Individual
I wouldn't discount that. We're seeing escalation of surveillance technology at work.
There was a viral Reddit thread last week. I certainly go there to get some information about the growth of technologies for white-collar workers. There's surveillance technology: Should I be paid based on how quickly I respond to an email, how many keystrokes I make and how fast my mouse goes?
The gentleman we heard from, from Uber, in his workday, has a predictable income. It doesn't depend on how many meetings you join and things like that.
Why have we datafied or overquantified work? That is part of this conversation.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. Villemure.
Mr. Green, you have two and a half minutes.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Thank you very much.
I have to say, I got pretty excited when I heard about the idea of a digital public infrastructure.
Mr. Wedge, as New Democrats, we believe that unions are the best way for people to protect their rights and have well-paying jobs with benefits and pensions in order to be able to take care of themselves and their families, yet we know the gig economy has decimated the ability to organize through organized labour. I suggested that it might be appropriate for us to look at sectoral bargaining with a tripartite process that brings workers, the private sector and the government to the table to help lift the minimum conditions and allow people to organize.
Hearing what Ms. Bednar said and knowing the abilities of your membership, do you agree with the notion that there could be—or at least that it's worth exploring and contemplating—a way in which the drivers have not just low-impact access to it, but ultimately the greatest share of the value they create in delivering the service?
In other words, do you think there's an opportunity to explore a worker-owned, co-operative model that allows for a public digital infrastructure to provide this type of service for people?
