Information & Ethics Committee on Dec. 3rd, 2024

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

What is your process for notifying users whose information has been accessed or compromised by a third party in an unauthorized manner?

[Jonathan Hamel]

What I can tell you about it is that, yes, when there was a breach in 2016, every user whose personal data had been obtained by third parties was notified. I can't tell you what the exact mechanism was, but I could provide you with that information later.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Barrett.

Mr. Hamel, the clerk will follow up with you so that you can provide the answers to Mr. Barrett's questions.

Ms. Khalid, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you to all of the witnesses who have appeared today.

I'll start with Mr. Hamel, if that's okay.

Mr. Hamel, there was a strike in Brampton in the public service that included the transit folks, and Uber decided to put forward a massive surcharge. Why was that?

[Jonathan Hamel]

Thank you for the question.

The way dynamic pricing works at Uber is central to our business.

Let me explain. At Uber, we are managing a market, and we try to keep it balanced. On the one hand, there are the drivers, who want to work and provide people with transportation services, and there are—

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I'm going to stop you there.

The people who use transit in the GTA and in Brampton specifically are those who don't have vehicles and don't have access to vehicles. Your company decided to take advantage of their trying to get to work.

Can you help me understand why that was? What is the moral compass with which your company conducts itself?

[Jonathan Hamel]

When there is an increase in the number of people who want to get around, rates go up. As a result, drivers are more inclined to meet the demand. That's how dynamic pricing works.

When more people want to get around than the number of available drivers, not everyone has access to a car. When that happens, the drivers see very clearly on their app where dynamic pricing is in effect. Since it's more financially appealing to them, they may decide to move to those areas to drive people to their destination.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you.

How much of that surcharge went to the drivers and how much of it went to the company?

[Jonathan Hamel]

When dynamic pricing is in effect and a rider pays a higher fare for a trip, the same proportions apply to drivers. Their income increases when they accept trips based on dynamic pricing.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Maybe I'll turn to Ms. Bednar for this question.

Ms. Bednar, you talked about artificial intelligence and its role in all of this.

In terms of what happened in Brampton with the strike and then the surcharges that were applied, how much of a role does artificial intelligence have to play in that? What do you think we need to do as a government to ensure that companies like Uber are not gouging the middle class that is trying to get to work because of the challenges of getting there?

[Vass Bednar]

I can't speak in detail to how those fees were determined during the strike, and I actually don't know their nomenclature. Obviously, if you want to characterize the surge portion of that pricing as being a junk fee, something that is passed on to people because the company can do that, then yes, these systems—these computer programs, these algorithms—absolutely have a role in that.

There are places where we accept surge pricing or expect surge pricing, but we're not having the broader policy conversation. Cineplex has recently been experimenting with an extra dollar charge on the opening weekend of a movie. Do we have an appetite for that? Do we have enough choice?

In focusing on that connection, through competition and false and misleading advertising, as well as consumer protection that occurs at the provincial level, I think we have very promising tools to respond to this and to have more robust policy conversations.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Wedge, you spoke about the relationship among the consumer, the restaurant and the delivery person. Where is the morality in how organizations like Uber, Lyft and many others conduct themselves with those surcharges and how they treat their drivers?

[George Wedge]

Well, let's start with how they treat their drivers. They don't acknowledge that we exist. The only contact we have with Uber is a third party that they use for complaints, and they're never helpful. They just read from a script.

On the morality and the pricing, the drivers feel like they're trash. For example, they'll be asked to do a delivery of up to 15 or 20 kilometres for three dollars. No one can survive on that, whether you're on foot, on a scooter or in a car.

We feel for consumers, because we know that they get charged so much money, but what they don't understand is that we get paid so little. When we see a surge, our drivers are happy, because they feel that they're actually getting what they deserve to get for the ride.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

What happens when a consumer returns the goods? Does the driver actually get any compensation for that?

[George Wedge]

With returned goods, I can speak to the food portion. It's usually a driver who brings it back, and the reason they bring it back is that the address was wrong or no one answered the door. The driver, if they complain, will get a return fee for bringing it back to the restaurant.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Ms. Khalid.

We were 45 seconds over, but I wanted to give him a chance to answer that question.

Mr. Villemure, you have the floor for six minutes.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Wedge, in your opening remarks, you talked about upfront fares. You were about to explain how the minimum amount that the driver will receive and the maximum amount that the customer will have to pay are determined.

Could you explain the process to us?

[George Wedge]

Yes. The thing about that was that the artificial intelligence—what we call “black box pricing”—exploits both the consumer and the driver in that case. It looks to the consumer who wants the ride or the service—it looks at their history and everything else, all the available data, time of day, whether there is a surge on, etc.—and will charge them the maximum amount that it thinks they will accept. Then it looks at the driver and does exactly the opposite. How bad is their day? How low is their rating? What's the minimum amount that driver will accept for that bit of business?

That's how it works. Then, of course, Uber takes everything in the middle. What we're seeing is a sliding scale of commission. The longer you drive and the farther you go, the less you make per kilometre, and the more they make.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

It's akin to exploitation.

Wouldn't you say?

[George Wedge]

It absolutely is exploitation, on all levels.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Okay, thank you.

Mr. Hamel, thank you for being here today.

First of all, I have no respect for your company. I consider what you do to be modern-day slavery.

You worked in politics before you joined Uber.

Is that correct?

[Jonathan Hamel]

Yes, I worked for the Quebec government.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

What did you do?

[Jonathan Hamel]

I worked for a number of ministers. I worked for the opposition and in Premier Couillard's office.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Were you involved in the negotiations with Uber back then?