Evidence of meeting #142 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was hamel.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Public Affairs Manager, Uber Canada
No, I was not involved in any discussions with Uber.
Bloc
Public Affairs Manager, Uber Canada
Uber Canada's vision is to offer choices, additional options—
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Excuse me, I was asking you to describe the culture, not the mission.
Public Affairs Manager, Uber Canada
Our culture and our mission are exactly the same. Uber's goal is to offer people who want to work flexibly an opportunity to do so.
Canadians who use the app greatly appreciate the flexibility it provides. According to more than 90% of people, that's the main reason they like the platform.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Okay.
Since Uber started out and even during the time of Travis Kalanick, the founder of the company, if I remember correctly, there have always been ethical or moral conflicts.
Are there still conflicts of any kind?
You're painting a very different picture from what Mr. Wedge and Ms. Bednar were saying.
Public Affairs Manager, Uber Canada
At Uber we've gone from confrontation mode to co-operation mode. A few moments ago, you were talking about Quebec. In very practical terms, we sit down with representatives of the Quebec government and all industry players four times a year to discuss problems. We're really in co‑operation mode.
Almost three years ago, we signed an agreement with UFCW Canada. It contains two parts to allow for better representation of drivers and delivery people. It also includes a joint proposal that we submitted to all provincial governments. In addition, the agreement stems from a discussion held with drivers and delivery people as early as 2020.
Let's take a concrete example—
Bloc
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Dynamic pricing, which Mr. Wedge referred to, determines the lowest amount that the driver will receive and the highest rate that will be charged to the customer. I asked Mr. Wedge if it was akin to exploitation, and he said it was.
How would you describe the practice?
It seems to me that Uber is using high demand as an excuse to exploit workers' vulnerability.
Public Affairs Manager, Uber Canada
I would say that workers appreciate flexibility.
We manage a market. The drivers are not our employees, and we don't have a fleet of vehicles. What we want is a balanced market. On the one hand, there are the drivers, and on the other, there are the people who want to get around. The two need to balance each other out, to meet in the middle, so to speak.
In addition, there's something very important to keep in mind: The app works well, and drivers need to continue working and accepting trips.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
It seems to me that drivers and customers don't really meet in the middle, as you put it. Mr. Wedge was talking about two extreme situations.
I ask because I'm having trouble understanding the discrepancy between your explanation and Mr. Wedge's.
Public Affairs Manager, Uber Canada
In practical terms, people who want to get around know in advance what rate they will pay before confirming their trip. I meant that people who want to get around are prepared to pay that amount.
It's also important to know that delivery people and drivers have full flexibility. They can decline trips. They don't have to accept them.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Okay.
Customers are willing to accept the cost of the trip because it suits them. However, do they know how much the driver will receive from the cost of the trip? I personally don't use Uber.
Do customers have any idea? Is it written down somewhere? Is there an itemized receipt?
Public Affairs Manager, Uber Canada
Consumers, who are the riders, don't know how much the driver is going to make in the end.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Okay.
Do you think it would be a good idea for them to know that?
Public Affairs Manager, Uber Canada
Frankly, it's a good question.
The most important thing is for the driver to know.
We were talking earlier about advance pricing. In British Columbia and Ontario, before accepting a trip, drivers know how much they're going to make.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. Villemure.
Thank you, Mr. Hamel.
Mr. Green, you have six minutes. Go ahead, sir.
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Thank you very much.
First, I want to thank the witnesses for being here.
Mr. Wedge, I want to have the opportunity to really centre on those most impacted by this, and those are the workers.
When you arrived, you started your remarks and you talked about the way in which there is data or algorithmic profiling of both the rider and the driver for maximum exploitation, to drive profits. You gave me an example of coming here from the airport. I want you to just start with that and expand on what that might look like.
President, Rideshare Drivers Association of Ontario
Sure, absolutely.
Of course, I took an Uber from the airport to this committee today. It was a new Canadian who picked me up, a lady driver. I asked her a little bit about her experience. Her English was very limited. She asked if I could speak some French. She was from Syria. I asked her how her experience was and what she thinks of the new upfront fare.
More importantly, I asked her, “How much are you being paid today to drive me to this committee?” She said, “Oh, $10.” I said, “Well, I'm paying $27.” There was a substantial gap.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
That's a significant order of magnitude above what the person who's actually delivering the value and the service is being paid versus how much the company is profiting, so this goes beyond service fees.
In your estimation, for the work that you do and the investments that your drivers have to put in.... They're obviously paying for the depreciating costs on their cars, their insurance and their gas. It was characterized by Mr. Hamel that you weren't actually employees. I want you to talk a little bit about what you consider your relationship to be with a company like Uber or Lyft or any of the other ride-share apps.
President, Rideshare Drivers Association of Ontario
Our relationship with Uber is no different than it is with any employer. They're going to put a piece of work in front of us, and they're going to ask, “Do you want it?” and we say, “Yes.” We don't get to negotiate the terms. We have no ability to delegate this work to someone who works for us.
We consider it to be an employer-employee relationship. It's just that the province has not found their way there yet.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
You spoke about a road map for ride-sharing in Toronto. You didn't mention what the pillars were. Very briefly, because time is tight, can you please talk about the two pillars that were delivered in Toronto and the third that you think is...? Again, this is going to go to committee for recommendations, so what's the third pillar?
President, Rideshare Drivers Association of Ontario
The first pillar they found was that they have to somehow right-size the fleet for the business that exists in Toronto. That's the first pillar.
The second pillar was that they have to understand that wage discrimination for ride-share drivers in Toronto exists. They need to understand what it is and see what they can do to remedy that. That's the second pillar.
The third pillar was to make it a driver-centric licensing system, versus issuing all of the licences to the large tech apps, because it enslaves us to work for them.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
To be clear, is the City of Toronto currently giving licences to the tech apps, which are then leasing them back to the drivers?